Roadtoad's theory on Kote gaeshi

Again, someone who has taken my comments completely the wrong way.
I learned slow, that's for sure. And, its not about language, its about doing the move.
I never missed a day my first year, six days a week. And after that year, I could just barely do the first 5 throws right.
You had to do aikido push ups 20 forward, 10 reverse. First day, white belt, or you had to leave. Now days, I don't see very many black belts that can even do one. Would a greater command of the japanese language improve their push up ability?
We would do leg lifts so long that you'd actually start laughing that it hurt so much. up, out, in down, don't let your heels hit the ground, ich,ni, san, shi, times 500 was nothing, just a normal part of the warm up, every day.
No one on earth works out harder than the japanese. On bokken training days, after warm-ups, we would start with four, alternating left and right overhead strokes, ich,ni, san shi --times a thousand. So, that's four thousand overhead strokes, And that was just warm ups. We hadn't even really started to train yet.
Show me one school in europe or america that even does one tenth of that.
So, I learned with my body. The old native indian saying is: 'your body will teach you everything.'
Do you think a chinese basketball player has to learn perfect english in order to learn how to slam dunk?
Well, its the same thing.
You learn by doing.

 

Keep it up Toad

*gives him another shovel*

 

Or, as Jesus says, 'Cast not your pearls amongst swine, for they will come along and gobble them up.'

 

We need a Toad cheer leader!


Sorry Toad but I stopped taking you seriously a while back.

Keep up though you're doing well.

 

What a joy not being able to read what he spews

 

Post a video of your new throw. I'll be happy to appraise it.

I'd say it's you that's gotten confused. Which isn't really surprising given that you redefine everything in your own terms. Which means in your tiny little mind you're never wrong. Unfortunately for you the rest of the world just doesn't operate according to your reality.

Now please learn some proper paragraphing.

 

No your comments were not taken the wrong way.
You tried to use terminology, it backfired, you were called on it and then tried to revert to "You don't need to be a scholar to truly understand budo!"

If you are living in Japan and doing budo, Japanese is essential for a plethora of reasons; Communication with your sensei, feedback with your uke, clarification of techniques, what brand of beer you want at the nomikai etc.
Without it, you're a fish on dry land; pucked.

I have lived in Japan for a little over a decade. I still visit twice a year to make sure I'm on the right track with movement and understanding of the densho.

To simply learn by doing is "monkey see, monkey do".
To subscribe to simply copying movements without actually understanding their intricacies and origins is why a lot of modern budo are going down hill like a car with no brakes. It's also how budo gets mystified.

Some fella does military service, learns a bit of karate, buys or earns a blackbelt and then after returning stateside, opens a dojo.
No Japanese language skills, no knowledge of the culture, history or anything that contributes to a greater understanding of budo.
Just the movements and a lot of D.I. type discipline.

Sound familiar?

 

Is this close to it roadtoad?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-BxBeT1f1k"]YouTube - ‪AIKIDO - MUNE (CHUDAN) TSUKI KAITEN NAGE‬‏[/ame]

 

My question was posed not because I don't know the answer mate.. I want roadtoad to prove to me he can back up what he's stated, thus far he hasn't.

 

well, since he's being ignored and i'm not bothering with the replies to said posts....

...i was really wondering about daito ryu. did these techniques have a name or number in drajj or was it k. ueshiba that implemented? and, what did o sensei call the techniques?

 

You'd have to speak with someone far more knowledgeable in Daito Ryu than I mate.

However just to illustrate: Within the Hiden Mokuroku there are 118 individual techniques alone, I also understand that within the Kaishaku Soden there are some 477 techniques - What those names are however, I haven't a clue as I've never studied Daito Ryu.

 

OK, thanks!

 

I'm not sure about Daito Ryu either... but roadtoad mentioned the stepping across during kote gaeshi as jujutsu. I can relate to that. Here is an example of one way we do kote gaeshi with a kick and step across. The video is about 6 or 7 years old and I can see some holes in my technique, but I think it still illustrates a more jujutsu like kote gaeshi compared to how I learned it in Aikido.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECHale4wMOw"]YouTube - ‪Punch & Counter 7A RW107‬‏[/ame]

 

that's so interesting rebel. thanks for posting. looks very similar to how we would do the same stuff in hapkido, from the counter to the finish, very similar.

 

Kote gaeshi can be legitimately and correctly applied via omote/ura/irimi/tenkan

There's no absolutes in any technical application provided kuzushi is being maintained, it matters not if kuzushi was achieved through kokyu or through atemi.

This ^ principle applies to EVERY aikido technique and I defy anyone - including you roadtoad - to prove me wrong. The issue of whether a kote gaeshi was Ueshiba Kisshomeru's or any other's for that matter is entirely irrelevant, providing universal principles (of which there are only a handful) are correctly at play, techniques will function.

It's important to always remember that Ueshiba Morihei DID NOT invent those principles. He simply used them in his budo.

 

I agree Dave, but principles would apply to all martial arts, not just Aikido. Part of what makes Aikido is in the details and emphasis in application of particular principles as demonstrated by various Aikido students and teachers.

Aikido may not be unique in principles, but it does have particular "flavors" and sometimes variations have to do with the physical capabilities and experiences of the individual person. A large person's Aikido might be the same in principles as a small person's Aikido, but in application they may be quite different. Both could be considered Aikido (basically agreeing with you that it all exists in Aikido so long as the application of principles is sound). What I'm slightly disagreeing with is that I believe it is okay to compare different application based on how a particular teacher might have taught it. Just because it all is Aikido doesn't mean we can't discuss how different Aikidoka might teach and prefer particular variations of technique and why.

Here is another example of kote gaeshi at around 1:51 seconds. Kyuzo Mifune was one of the best Judoka ever. You can see the use of dropping the weight with a knee drop for the throw. The knee drop is a very good technique as it drops the weight while allowing the keeping of posture... this in itself is something that must be trained well because many people that drop the knee while under fire (under effects of adrenaline and pressure) can easily drop too far and slam their own knee into the pavement out of bad habit. The details of a knee drop so as to not slam the knee into the ground is something of concern and training appropriate for this is necessary.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P0vZQ4WyIE"]YouTube - ‪master of Judo Kyuzo Mifune part 8 of 8‬‏[/ame]

 

it always amazes me how fast mifune is (in the videos). i mean all the videos i've ever seen of the guy, he's already old. i can't imagine the speed and power when he was 25.

 

Very true, indeed this actually reinforces my previous statement regarding there being "no absolutes".

It is blatantly obvious there are style related differences between the established forms of aikido - including that which is promulgated under the umbrella of the Aikikai, that doesn't mean however - to keep this on topic - that a kote gaeshi from within one school (or teacher) of aikido is wrong/underdeveloped compared with another - indeed I consider it entirely arrogant of an individual, to not only make direct comparisons between - again on topic - Ueshiba Kisshomeru and his way of doing things (as the founder's Son) and Saito Sensei, and then criticise one against the other.

It's a fruitless discussion on many levels.

 

That Mifune Kote Gaeshi looks devastating. Straight into the ground, no where to run.

I just love how varied Kote Gaeshi can be whilst remaining brutally effective. Here's a nice slo-mo video of Robert Mustard Sensei doing a Kote Gaeshi which is at the other end of the spectrum to the Mifune one and is essentially a throw

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WMWMQR9B7w&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Aikido Yoshinkai Burnaby - Mustard Sensei‬‏[/ame]

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbgRGgcBAUg&NR=1"]YouTube - ‪Koichi Tohei - ki aikido 2/5 Fundamental Concept Principle‬‏[/ame]

At about 1:56 Tohei does kotegaeshi. And this was filmed while he was 9th dan. So still part of the Aikikai.