Roadtoad's theory on Kote gaeshi

Yeah, aikiwolfe, that'll be a typical example of an atheist deciding how clairvoyance works, when you know nothing about it.
And, to aikdojomofo, you've got it 100% backwards, I've been trying to demonstrate how proud I am that Kissomaru, for example, invented many new aikido throws. I've been bleeting on about that, so where have you been?
From Tomiki onward, there have been those who have learned from osensei, and go out and teach what they learned. And all of them teach a different aikido. Saito's aikido is not Kissomaru's aikido.
Do you invalidate any of them?
Osensei never met for aikido to be static, he wanted it to change with the times. Many throws changed even in the brief time I was in Japan.
And, now, no one has a , unique to aikido, goshi that is actually a goshi. And now I have invented one.
And you don't want to hear about it because you ingratiate yourself within the group by calling me less than zero by telling lies about me, like the one you just did, is that right?

 

Oh, sorry, Shinkei,
sure. No, sorry, I don't have a camera, or anything, but, since you practice aikido and judo, maybe I can explain it.
Against westerners, I believe kaiten nage to be the most worthless aikido throw. It only works (maybe) in Japan, if someone throws a chuba, thrusting punch at you, with their head down.
And, any westerner over 3 years old, when you put your hand on the back of their head, will push their head back and neutralize your move.
O.k., now, this will even work with the stupid sword strike.
Say, someone punches at you, with their right hand, sword strike, actual shomen uchi, or even right handed tsuki,
So, you start, as you normally would with kaiten nage, you block his oncoming right arm down, with your left hand.
Your right leg is now back.
Then, and here's the trick, instead of placing your right hand behind his head, as you would in kaiten nage, you keep you right hand out for a moment.
Then, you come forward with your right leg and place it entirely behind uke's body, at least his front leg, and maybe even his back leg. You bring your hips right in there, behind him. Then, you place your right arm over his right shoulder, even his left shoulder, and even, if he is much taller than you, under his left shoulder,
then, something like o soto gari, or even, a sort of backwards uchimata, you throw him over your hips.
Your left arm doesn't have to be involved, but his right arm is trapped by the move.
He can't do anything with his left arm.
So, the great aikido concept of clamping one side, and controlling the other, is maintained
'Wah-la
an unique aikido goshi that actually is a goshi.
A new throw to this earth.
What do you think?
Thank you.

 

Name the techniques which Ueshiba Kisshomeru "invented" please.

 

koshi-nage 腰投げ not goshi-nage.

Where did you learn your Japanese?

 

Atheist? Where do you get that from? Don't think I've ever claimed to be an atheist on MAP or anywhere else for that matter. I do however find it quite ridiculous you'd claim to have clairvoyant powers when you can't even follow the news or subject matter pertinent to a forum you post on.

I know exactly how "clairvoyance" in martial arts works.

 

o.k., so I got four of you that just jumped up on my chest with your track spikes at the same time, how inglorious, so:
to Dave Humm: This thread is called 'roadtoad's kotegaeshi', in actuality, it is Kissomaru's kote gaeshi. I find it very inventive that he took a basic aikijitsu move, added two tai no henken type reverse twirls to it, besides the idea of not letting uke's hand rise, and made it into something very powerful.
That, plus the idea of stretching one's loins in ikkyo omote, and also, not letting uke's hand rise in shiho nage ura.
On top of that, I bet you didn't know that Kissomaru Ueshiba actually invented the language we use in aikido today. Before we said, 'shomenuchi ikkyo omote, we said, 'shomenuch ikkyo irimi', etc.
Kissomaru changed all of that. He was Doshu for nearly 30 years, I'm surprised that so little of his aikido actually made it to your side of the planet.
Kogusoku: neither koshi nor goshi mean 'hip' in japanese, they more address the movement used in a throw. When I say, 'a goshi that is a goshi', I mean a throw that actually uses the hip, as in O goshi nage, a judo throw.
Aiki Mac: When I say, 'Tohei got kicked out', how could you possibly misinterpet it to mean, 'Bob Nadeau got kicked out'? At least, that seems to be your meaning, as I read your message. Was English your first language?
Aikiwolfe: If someone doesn't believe in clairvoyance, which I know you don't, I consider that person an atheist. Well, that's just me, sorry.
In any case, you are confusing claivoyance with telepathy, those are two very different things.
So, any way, some of you actually sound like you've been in martial arts for at least a week or two, you should be therefore able to make a honest, and prehaps accurate, appraisal of my new throw.
How about it?

 

What kanji are you using for that?

To me goshi would be 越し meaning across.

Where as koshi 腰 would mean hip, hip area lower back etc. You'll note this kanji is the same as the one Steve listed.

Could you please clarify.


I have a feeling it might be purely down to pronunciation on your part so the kanji would help.

It's like the jitsu jutsu "thing", people mix them up using them for the same thing when they are in fact different kanji.

 

Here, try this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_goshi

 

You'll note the kanji 腰 in the title for hip throw?

As I understand it that is pronounced こし which your source seems to reflect.

Now is goshi a "Judo thing"? Something that has sprung up from western misunderstand of the language?

Do you have any kanji for the throw?

Discussing Japanese is pointless if the writing system isn't being used.

EDIT: Ah got em sorry half asleep.

From your wiki
O goshi (大腰): Full hip throw

Now to me the reads big or large hip. おお (oo) would be how you say 大 and こし (ko shi or rather koshi) would be 腰.

Goshi would be ごし.

I'd be interested in what Steve (Kogusoku) has to say on the subject, considering his time in Japan and training etc.

 

I don't know, you're way over my head. That's how they pronounce it in japan, that's all I know. Who corrupted it and why, is way beyond me.
As for my throw? It doesn't even have a name yet, maybe you can make one up for me.

 

o.k., as usual, its a matter of sematics. When Tohei got fired, Bob went out with him, he seperated from hombu, at least for a while, because someone else took over his dojo in mountain view.
He's not my friend, I never even shook hands with him. I just waved 'hi' to him once, so I don't have his 100% read on anything. Its just that so many of us where so shocked, because osensei made Tohei the only 10th dan ever, and told Tohei that he was in charge of Hombu, then Tohei went to Hombu, and they told him, 'Your services will no longer be needed'.
No one on earth could have possibly organized this event except Kissomaru Ueshiba, who was now, the new doshu. Or, at least, no one could have organized it without Kissomaru's knowledge.
I quit on the spot, never to return.
All of this took place within months of the time that osensei died.
I left japan about the same time and went to Arizona. By my understanding at the time, Bob Nadaeu had left mainstream aikido, and went out with Tohei, and invented 'KI', or whatever they called it. I'm sure that he did that, at least for a while, if he then 'played both ends to the middle', its really beyond my ability to know.
That's all I know. Its obvious now that Bob came back in somehow, because he claims to be a 7th dan now.
There's so much that has happened that is hard to figure out, or is unknowable. As to who did what for what motivation. Those that know something won't say much. I'm just giving it the way I understand it.
No one was more loyal to osensei than Saito. Osensei died in Saito's arms.
From then on, for the next approx. 30 years, there was a tension between Kissomaru and Saito.
Much took place that I don't quite understand. Saito may have been continuing to promote out of Iwama. How much he was actually communicating with Hombu is a big question.
Then, Saito went around the u.s. and europe, trying to get every dojo to sign a letter of agreement , or proposal, that they would be loyal to osensei, if that meant being loyal to Saito, I don't know, but maybe.
But, I think the Ueshiba clan rejected that proposal.
Now, the Saito name is not part of main stream aikido.
Only Hombu and Iwama can promote now, in main stream aikido.
Of course the dojo at Iwama is broken down now from the Fukushima disaster.
Someone needs to glean all of it out.
I think every dojo should try to find out how they stand in relationship to main stream aikido.
I have the real sense that there will be a split, and, that soon, maybe,we will speak about 'Saito aikido' ,as a seperate entity.

 

I asked you to name the "techniques"

You answered with this..

..that reply was failure # 1

You continued with...

.. and failure # 2

You still haven't answered my question, please list all the techniques which Ueshiba Kisshomeru "invented". Thank you

 

No there won't and no we won't .

 

it's my understanding dave, limited as it may be, that the second doshu only codified the techniques of the first doshu. so while o sensei didn't necessarily have numbered techniques or names, or anything other than "pillars", the second doshu codified the techniques in order to make them more teachable to spread the art. and correct me if i'm wrong, there are many more empty-hand techniques than ikkyo, nikyo, etc., they just don't have names, per se.

i have a question though, were these techniques named something in daito ryu?

also, isn't saito's aikido just o sensei's aikido?

 

That was my answer i.e., 'I find it very inventive' In other words, I consider his changes to be inventions. They are very profound. If you consider them modifications, then, sie la vie.
To me, his new ideas made all the difference in the world, conserning whether a technique will work or not. People complaning that they give uke a big injury when they do kote gaeshi the old way, if they try kissomaru's way, they'll find that those injuries will be greatly reduced.
Yes, I see these things as inventions. I sense that you don't. So we disagree

 

Way over your head??

You are supposed to have trained over there and to such a degree to tell the members here what is or isn't Aikido.

How the heck did you survive with such shoddy language skills?
How did you learn?

My Japanese is virtually non existent so for someone making the claims you do you should have no problem following what I posted.

 

You have more than adequately illustrated your succinct lack of knowledge in Japanese. Bravo.

Koshi in Japanese is "hip" (腰). When suffixed, the initial "K" sound is softened from a voiceless velar plosive sound to a voiced uvular plosive sound, which is a "G" sound.

In the Japanese language, a number of words when suffixed have a phonetic syllabic shift. Some words starting with a "K" (Ka, ki, ku and so on) when suffixed start with a "G", "S" words start with a "Z" and kana like "tsu" become "zu/dzu".

Keru (蹴る - To kick) - Keri-waza: Mae-geri, mawashi-geri, etc.

Kiru (切る - To cut) - Kiri-waza: Kesa-giri, suihei-giri, etc.

And yes, geri (下痢) is diarrhoea.

Additionally, Giri (義理) is obligation.

It's important sometimes to know what we are speaking about, technically as budoka. Otherwise, we are talking about diarrhoea.........

Sorry, I'm typing slightly drunk.

 

lol I'm an idiot don't know why I didn't click that.

Oh yeah it's because my grammar sucks!




Cheers Steve.