Roadtoad's theory on Kote gaeshi

... and again in this picture taken quite some years later

 

Can I just add that that was a beautiful video - loved it, and that is from a non-Aikidoka

 

Really ? You need to provide some evidence of such a statement.... Which is what exactly.

Your version, from an unknown source, another anonymous individual who claims to know what they're talking about or...

From a world renown teacher, a master instructor and longest serving student of the founder himself... ?

I know which one I'd take the final word from however, given Saito Snr is sadly no longer with us, perhaps we should refer to the book he's seen holding in the two illustrations I posted earlier. The Book, an actual original manuscript authored by his teacher Ueshiba Morihei. In that book it clearly describes how Ueshiba Morihei wanted kote gaeshi to be done and, in my experience of studying Iwama Ryu with a teacher who has himself studied in Japan, that's how Saito taught and executed that technique. And "clumsy" isn't how I'd describe Saito's waza.

Let's not forget that Ueshiba Morihei was a diminutive man in stature thus, for taller and stockier builds it is almost impossible to copy (from an identical perspective) the smallest technicalities of body movement, it still doesn't make what one does wrong providing the principles of the system are fully at play. Let's also not overlook that as a Budo, aikido does not seek to create robots in it's students and, encourages a degree of personal interpretation.

As far as I can see, you're clutching at fairly trivial technicalities as if they were fundamentals. Provided you apply Hanmi, Awase and Kokyu to everything you do in your body art, techniques fall into place.

 

Surely - and this may be my pragmatism slipping out - if the guy ends up on his ass who cares if your pinky was pointing the right way?

Having actually used this technique (or slight variation) "live" I can tell you that as soon as you get your move on the guy drops

 

Correct.

 

I suppose the distinction falls between whether you are doing the art for it's own sake or for it's application. They are not mutually exclusive, but I will take function over form any day of the week

 

LOL Just what I was about to say Mac. In Iwama in th 60s and no idea who Bob Nadaeu was is just hilarious to hear.

 

No, I don't know what book Saito is holding. And, I think I know who Bob Nadaeu is, if he's who I think he is, I went to his dojo a few times in the late 60s in south san francisco, or, possibly mountain view, the towns there are so close, you don't know when you've left one and entered the other. He's the guy that was the head of detectives on the san francisco police force, right?
See, I never knew him by name.
You guys will do anything to invalidate me, won't you?
I only went to Iwama once. I was in the Iwama school on Azuma japanese Air Base, under Isoyama, with Saito as the overriding instructor. Saito would come down and visit us sometimes, and, sometimes, take us to Hombu.
Here you are, 46 years later, calling me a phony, by inventing your own facts that have nothing to do with anything I ever claimed.
Yeah, Bob was a 3rd dan then, and there was a 2nd dan there that actually was a white guy with some ki. That surprised me. None of those guys knew anything about weapons then, not even Bob.
I didn't get to talk to Bob because he had so much detective work going on at the time.
Tohei didn't teach much weapons. Weapons training didn't come out of Iwama until Kissomaru let Saito do it. Weapons training didn't leave Japan until the 80s
Bob's group were the ones that were way more dedicated to Tohei than Kissomaru, and, quit Aikido when Tohei got fired. At least, they let someone else take over their dojo.
I can see where Bob may have had many philosophical conversations with osensei, because osensei belonged to that strange religion, and explained everything in reference to it.
Tohei's Aikido was really pre-WWII, which was what he mostly taught in the states. He had the second most ki to osensei, that's why osensei put him in charge of Hombu, by making him the only 10th dan ever. Osensei always took ki first. And, now, we have aikido without ki. Almost no aikido black belts have any ki any more. Then Kissomaru fired Tohei.
Its too bad that they couldn't get along.
I only know some of the fringe details. I have the sense that Tohei would have accepted Kissomaru's more dynamic techniques. This would have made a great aikido, but, it wasn't meant to happen.
I didn't hang around in Iwama, if that's what you think I'm claiming. I was in the Iwama school. Osensei put Saito over Isoyama. Both of them had been uke deshi at the same time, then Isoyama joined the military. You guys are inventing something that I never meant to imply.
Tohei was a foot soldier during the war, killed a lot of americans, and then, as a karma thing, spent a lot of time in the states, trying to make up for his war killing. He was on the other side.
One of Tohei's favorite spots was the dojo you're talking about, with Bob.
Meanwhile, the person that raised the concept of Aikido to the highest point was Kissomaru. He developed the techniques to the highest dynamics, with still, trying to be as gentle on uke as humanly possible.
No one that I know is trying to improve the aikido techniques any more, certainly not the grandson.
I've already shown you a more dynamic kote gaeshi, as taught by Kissomaru. I'd like to go over three more with you, ikkyo omote, shiho nage ura, and a goshi that actually is a goshi. If you guys could just get over the poison you've developed in your head for me.

 

I didn't need to read any further. If you really had any connection with Saito Sensei, or aikido back when you claim, you'd have known what that manuscript was, but more importantly why Saito referenced it in his own teaching - to illustrate that he was faithfully transmitting the system which had been taught to him and not, altering/changing it. You know that Saito often stated that aikido didn't belong to him, it wasn't his to change. All he actually did was codify how it was taught from an Iwama perspective.

I see you haven't answered the difficult question.. Not that I really expected you too.

 

Who are you then? Why the need to want to express all this wonderful information yet you're another one of those people who apparently just has to remain hidden behind a keyboard.

Trust is earned.. thus far you're not earning very much.

 

Interesting that, considering the years of his military service, '42-'46 up to his repatriation to Japan, were spent in China where he gained the reputation for caring for his enemy.

Now, given that Japan's entry into WWII started with Pearl in '41 and they surrendered in '45 that leaves just three years of service for Tohei and an additional year which was officially 'post war' service - all of which was in China.

Explain to me therefore how Tohei a man noted for his compassion in war "killed a lot of americans", given that the actual amount of american forces killed in China was comparatively small compared to the losses sustained by both the Chinese civilian and military at the hands of the Japanese Imperial Forces.

I'm also at a loss to understand why Tohei would feel the need to atone (as you suggest) for his part in the killing of American military when, it is a known fact that Tohei's countrymen would routinely rape, torture and murder the Chinese purely for no other reason than they saw the Chinese as an "inferior race" and, importantly to note, this behavior was far more prevalent than the accounts of actual combat between Japanese and American forces in China.

So supposition aside for a moment, got any proof of what your suggesting ?

 

Actually, Japan started the war in manchuria, mongolia in 1931. Tomiki, who was promoted to 8th dan in osensei's system (not called aikido then) in 1925 or 1927, then, because he was a professor of calligraphy, etc., he went into china, with the occupating forces, was made a POW for 15 years, then came out and started tomiki aikido, which was pronounced aw-kee-do, in those days.
Then, Tohei, the version I gave was the way I heard it.
And Saito, the book he was reading might have given the older type of aikido, but Kissomaru had already upgraded those techniques, many of which Saito did not use. So, there always was a tension between Kissomaru and Saito. Isoyama, even though he was technically Saito's student, was really more aligned with the techniques of Kissomaru, which is what I'm trying to tell you about.
So, meanwhile, you try to set me up with underhanded techniques. I know you are trying to do the right thing, after all, most of you are much younger than my own kids, and some of them don't believe half the stuff that I tell them about the old days, so I can't really blame you.
So, have you seen what I meant about kote gaeshi, or not?
I can guarantee you that Kissomaru's kote gaeshi does not show up in that book that Saito has.
Because of the palace plots, the firing of Tohei, etc. There was tension between Saito and Kissomaru, until they both died within a few years of each other.
I see the conflict as very similar to the conflicts between Paul and James in the days after Jesus left the earth. In the Bible, Paul states that James tried to kill him, but some sources say that Paul actually killed James.
Iwama was a dirty word in Hombu, until Saito (allowed by Kissomaru) came out and showed the weapons techniques. I don't even think Hombu saw the Iwama weapons techniques until after osensei died. I know the west never saw any of it until the mid 80s, or so, when Saito finally got his teeth fixed, and started travelling all over the place.
Only then, did 'Iwama aikido' become famous. In Hombu, after osensei died, Iwama aikido was nothing. At the time, no one in Iwama was allowed to promote straight from Iwama, as they are now under Isoyama. Saito took it on himself to promote people anyway, making the rift even deeper.
Now, since Saito was the only major component in Iwama aikido, Isoyama was locked up in the military academy, everyone took Saito's taijitsu, empty hands techniques to be gospel, when, in fact, many where much different than the much improved versions that Kissomaru had put together.
If you want to hear more, let me know, if you still don't believe me, let me know

 

Entirely irrelevant, you were specifically talking about Tohei Koichi and his apparent "killing of americans"

So you're regurgitating at least third hand information unless it was Tohei himself who told you this.. was it.. because I doubt it.

I can't comment on what Saito Sensei did or didn't do compared to Kissomaru. What I can say with absolute certainty, is that the Aikido which was taught to him DIRECTLY by the person who created the system, has been faithfully transmitted, and continues to be transmitted through his son.

If you don't agree with what Saito set out to do then I respect that however, you're in ABSOLUTELY no position to tell me or anyone for that matter, that what they do is wrong, inferior or in any way lacking - because that's essentially what you've tried to do here.

I'm not interested in the politics. So don't bring them here.

thank you but don't patronise me. I'm an adult - a grown man who can think and act on my own recognisance based on direct experience (in this case Aikido) with teachers whom hold my respect and trust, not from an unknown source such as you.

Of course it won't, the book was written by his father - the FOUNDER of the system.

More irrelevance which you include to pad out your otherwise factual lacking post.. Like the following...

Is this thread an historical discussion of the internal politics which included the nidai doshu, Saito/Tohei/Kermit the frog ? No.. so why continue to post this gibberish ?

Stop wasting your time here, seriously.

 

o.k., you're right about me and Tohei, but, on the other hand, I doubt that it was Tohei that explained his army experiences to you.
And, it would seem that you accept Saito's aikido to be truer than Kissomaru's aikido. Probably because that's the way of the school you went to.
So, since you consider me a big zero, let me show you these things anyway.
Here is an actual white guy, actually 'stretching the loins' in shomenuchi ikkyo. Its against a stupid sword strike, but, at least, he's doing it the way that Kissomaru wanted.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgoM_xrveO4&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Aikido Basic Techniques : Shomenuchi Ikkyo‬‏[/ame]

 

I won't show any more because I can't find anyone doing a goshi nage that is any different than a judo goshi nage. Isoyama actually had one, but now he seems to have a slipped disc in his lower back and only 'throws 'em over his shoulder' as Saito used to.
So, here is a guy actually attempting to bring uke's hand down as he applies shiho-nage ura, the way Kissomaru wanted it.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BXCGcXYy8o&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Aikido Nishimura Shihan Shiho-nage‬‏[/ame]

 

Are you a racist ?

.."an actual white guy".. you said that, really.

 

http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356/saturday-night-live-white-like-me :evil:

 

Doesn't work for people resident outside the US mate

 

Self discipline (which is not a bad thing to have in martial arts) is the only reason to care. Which allows us to study and refine our technique. Beyond that use what works in the real world.