You know there's probably 50 or more hand strikes one could waste their time practicing. But you'll probably get along well using 3-4 of them 99% of the time.
Now i agree with this, but i just cant get rid of everything in the system. I already took out 3-5 pinion/pinan - whichever. I enjoy the different handstrikes. I have eliminated the Chicken wrist strike to any bony parts though. Which means that we do not do a chicken wrist strike as the natural strike off of the 7 & 8 block in the 8 point blocking system. Jesse
Not to mention that certain strikes are not going to be nearly as effective if someone's charging at you and they have their senses dulled from booze or drugs. A lot of things work great, but only if you have the chance to apply it. If it can't be done against someone coming at you aggressively, how much real value does it have?
Good thought IMHO... http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/Phoenix Eye Techs/Pheonix-eye.jpg Much better for the throat (some are like this and others are slightly different) and the poke is good for the eye. The phoenix eye (beak) is a good one for many things. That finger holding goes along with a fist that is used that way to accentuate the two bigger knuckles. Wing Chun uses it different, some do and some don't, I have found... Variable's are out there, similar to katas.
You should feel clean and refreshed for you have learned something new He is Immortal not immoral. :Angel: Gary
Phoeniix Eye We call the Phoenix Eye a Trigger Finger strike. Our Immortal Man strike is a Leopards Paw with the index and middle finger extended out into a stright position. It can be used in a vertical or horizontal position.
maybe that natural strike is not rising to the chin, but angled into the solar plexus as they react to the downward drag from the block... just a thought...
Yes, we refer to the "Phoenix Eye" strike as a "index knuckle punch". The "Immortal man" strike your describing, I haven't encountered in the Kajukenbo I've learned from the Reyes lineage. My first instructor from the Leoning lineage taught the strike, and called it a "pistol poke". But it was not taught as a raking or ripping strike. just a straight poke to the eye. I haven't eliminated any of these types of strikes as they are practiced in our sets and forms. I just don't spend extra time on them. When it comes to freestyling and sparring, we have a stronger escrima and boxing flavor to our hand strikes.
Interesting tidbit....I think in my Kempo training I learned in some way shape or form how to strike in every possible position you can put your hand into, with every surface possible that your hand can produce. I got like 30 something variations.
I'll believe you, until you mention you got into the cavity and pulled out one of the organs Near the diaphram I am talking about no lower than the belly button. Gary
My first instructor from the Leoning lineage taught the strike, and called it a "pistol poke". But it was not taught as a raking or ripping strike. just a straight poke to the eye. John Bishop mentions. ____________________________________________ I have used a real pistol for that poke, a 6" Colt Police Positive. No beef, but that was then and this is now. Probably fired and placed in a cold cell But it was a life threatening situation, but not deadly force necessary. If that had not worked, it might have been a different deal. Despiration can lead to unusual tactics. The throat is a very tender area and it should be avoided unless you are really into some deep circumstance IMHO...Eye also but they are all fair game at some point in time if you are needing it to win.
Al, I agree. Even in the two lineages of Kajukenbo that I studied, terms were differant. In the Reyes lineage, it was pretty straight forward english names most of the time. But he was only influenced by Adriano and Joe Emperado in the original method, so there were very few Asian names for things. On the other hand, the Leoning lineage had a very strong Chinese influence. He also had trained with the Emperado brothers, but once he got to the mainland, he followed Adriano's advice and started looking into the Chinese arts. First in San Francisco with Share Lew, and then in Los Angeles with Ark Yuey Wong, Johnny Mar, and Kam Yuen. The biggest influence coming from Ark Wong. Unknown to many was the fact that Leoning was the first non-Chinese student that Ark Wong ever taught. Leoning was so impressed with Wong that he had Wong come to his school on Lankershim Bl, and teach classes one day a week. This wasn't a simple task since Ark Wong didn't drive or own a car. Leoning, Peter Robinson, and his father got Wong an old Cadilac convertible that they repaired and got running. They then taught him how to drive and took him to the DMV, where Peterson covertly read the test questions to Wong, because he didn't read english at the time. After a few years Share Lew moved down to Los Angeles, and Leoning also continued his previous training with him. But back to my point. A lot of techniques I learned from the Leoning lineage had Asian names. A "middle knuckle" punch was called a "dragon fist". A "foreknuckle" punch was called a "leopard or panther" punch. A "claw" or "rake" was called a "tiger claw", etc, etc. Asian referances from Leoning's side, and english names from Reyes's side.
Kool, sort of like North and South Kung/Gung Fu only in CA... John mentions: But back to my point. A lot of techniques I learned from the Leoning lineage had Asian names. A "middle knuckle" punch was called a "dragon fist". A "foreknuckle" punch was called a "leopard or panther" punch. A "claw" or "rake" was called a "tiger claw", etc, etc. Asian referances from Leoning's side, and english names from Reyes's side.
John, Our Immortal Man strike is used as a straight poke only. My reference to being both vertical / horizontal was the hand position, it is either in a vertical or horizontal with the floor. We were required to strike a heavy bag with this strike, (at reduced power only). The view back then was if you couldn't hit a semi soft bag with it then you shouldn't be using it. Personally I still hit the strike board with the fist, palm, claw and leopard paw strikes. I strike a soft light bag with the few finger strikes that I still use. The early SKK systems used both English and Japanese names for the same strikes. Ex. - Sword Hand = Shuto strike. Chinese Kenpo using Japanese terms, it was confusing at first, I am still some what in the dark about that one. Thanks for the response.
I found the strike on Page 114, Figure 12-8 in Ed Parker's Book: "The Secrets of Chinese Karate" (1963). It shows a diagram of the exact hand position calling it the 'immortal man strike" and then in Chinese: "Hsien-jen chin-lu". In the background it shows a picture of an old bearded man pointing: "The immortal man pointing the way". Sounds like something from Chinese mythology. This strike is in the Nick Cerio's Kenpo curriculum as a defense against a grab and called "Fleeing Snake". I will look it up in the Master's Text (NCK) because although I remember the technique, I don't recall what he described the hand position as. - Joe
John, just a simple clarification, I am not starting a flame war by any means. This is just for my own historical accuracy of my lineage. When I was doing my history research on my website we were involved in a written debate of certain issues. I just wish to clarify this because I had changed it according to what you had stated. I originally had John Leoning meeting Share K. Lew in San Francisco's Chinatown when he and Sonny Gascon were searching for someone who would be open to exchange their knowledge for Chinese Kung Fu techniques. You stated that John Leoning met Share K. Lew in Los Angeles in 1959. So I changed that. On the above post you have the opposite: On the other hand, the Leoning lineage had a very strong Chinese influence. He also had trained with the Emperado brothers, but once he got to the mainland, he followed Adriano's advice and started looking into the Chinese arts. First in San Francisco with Share Lew After a few years Share Lew moved down to Los Angeles, and Leoning also continued his previous training with him.[/B] Is this a mistake or did you find out something different later? I know martial arts history has many twists and turns the more one researches and I have had to make other changes myself on things I thought were accurate from previous information. I just request a clarification for historical accuracy. Thanks. - Joe
I understand your wish to have every detail of the full truth of your arts history, but I'm failing to see the difference between your account and Bishop's. Is it that he said he met with Lew in SF and went to LA, and you say it was really first and always LA?
Yes, I have to agree with this and it sure predates Christ and the story of his Immortality. I believe it might be in the book Bubishi, I'll have to browse it again. Curious now. Gary
No, it was always in San Francisco that the meet took place. John Leoning and Sonny Gascon met with the man and started their new direction. They did this without the direction of AE and that is/was some of the problem that came up and why Sonny went the direction he did. What I have always known anyway. This was prior to all the Bruce Lee and the book by Ed Parker SR. about Chinese Karate. It was a new trend and John and Sonny were very much in the design of the new way that it ultimatly went. Funny because Johnny went on to teaching it to the Movie folks, and went into the series Kung Fu... EP Sr., had some stars also, no doubt about it. But so did Johnny Leoning. An absolute tragedy he died in 77, and history would be different if he was still around LOL... Big time. My small contribution has shown some changes. Look at the Family Tree of Kajukenbo and see Charles Fisher, It was said at one time that his story was false (he had a web site but died) and now it is on the tree of John Leoning HMMMM...I have all that information on a hard drive of another computer all I have to do is plug it in and get it, if anyone wants to go there. I am sure if John Bishop, wants to share he has it also. The mon of Leoning is a big clue, and also the kanji that I supplied to Charles is huge. Gary
Where does it state that the Immortal Man points the way is more than 2000 years old? The bubishi does not have that strike mentioned. They show six strikes called the "six Ji Hands" and they are 1) Iron Bone hand [ridge hand] 2) Claw hand 3) Iron Sand Palm [sort of like a "Willow Palm"] 4) Blood pool Hand [kind of a chicken wrist] 5) Sword Hand [shuto] and 6) One Blade of Grass Hand [single finger poke]
