Questions for Matt Barnes

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by John Bishop, Mar 8, 2007.

  1. bill007

    bill007 New Member

    Hello Professor Shuras,

    in fleeing snake we use the bridge poke in the throat to bring down the opponent not immortal man, I don't have the masters text, if you can please tell me what the text say.

  2. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I am not sure Dan and like I said I have to review it before I do confirm one way or the other. It might not be a strike it might be the man himself.

    Problem with not checking and mentioning something out loud or print it.

    Immortality was around long ago I am thinking. As far as specific strike I don't really know at this point and time thanks for the answer now I won't look there. :D

    But, I'll bet it was a strike in a Chinese art, that is very old. ;)

  3. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    For a serious historian, research is something that is unending. A lot of times I don't put out new information that I have learned, because someone always has the attitude that I'm now changing the story. I'm really pretty tired of people saying, "in a magazine article you wrote in 1990 you said this. Now your changing the story." For some silly reason, some people think that adding new information somehow changes the old information. Like if you didn't mention the information the first time, it must be a lie. When in fact your just filling in some gaps, with newly discovered information.
    I'm very lucky to have access to many people and information. This is partly due to my location on the west coast where many of the senior Kajukenbo and Kenpo practitioners are. My magazine writing has also opened many doors to me. And recently my website has brought me in contact with relatives of many of the kenpo pioneers that are no longer with us.

    When it comes to John Leoning, I'm very lucky to be close to many of his early students. Coming from his lineage, I am considered a part of the Leoning Ohana. Every spring for about the last 15 years, we have a inter-dojo tournament at Doug Bunda's school. (This is in addition to the 3-4 other times a year we see each other at tournaments and seminars.) But at Doug's tournament, many of the old Leoning students spend the whole day together. Doug and Carlos Bunda, John Leoning Jr., David Kawashima (before he passed), and some others that are still in the L.A. area.
    I'm also in communication with some of Leoning's students from his first school in Kalihi, like Al Rimando.
    Since my book has come out, more people are getting in touch with me to share what they know about Leoning. Funny thing, my wife took a book to work to show her friends. The office manager asked to borrow one to show her brother who is in the martial arts. Well, she comes back and says that her brother wants to buy one because the teacher he trained with when he was a Marine in Hawaii is pictured on page 25. Well, on page 25 is John Leoning's picture. So he's going to be another source of information for me.
    One thing great about knowing so many people who were with Leoning, including his son, is that they can verify if someone is truthful or just trying to impress someone with some made up story.

    As to the Share Lew question, that is not new information, but what took place in the San Francisco meetings is still in question. Share Lew has said that he didn't teach any non-Chinese until he moved to Los Angeles in 1959. Some of Leoning's early students are saying that they did get together in San Francisco before that. They can't say for sure if there was any actual physical instruction being done in those meetings. San Francisco is 400 miles from Los Angeles, so the few meetings were very infrequent. That is why Leoning developed the relationship with Ark Yuey Wong in Los Angeles. And it is believed that that relationship with Wong, Johnny Mar, and Kam Yuen was what convinced Share Lew to take Leoning as a student when he moved to L.A. One thing the early Leoning students agreed on was; that there was NO exchange of information. Wong and Lew were considered very senior to Leoning, and Leoning was their student. In fact some have gone as far as to say that Wong and Lew were senior to everyone who was in Kajukenbo at the time.

    Since your interested in east coast history. Joe, has your research revealed that John Leoning had a branch school in New England in 1965? And that this instructor met George Pesare in Meriden, CT. in 1966?
  4. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    You have my attention!

    That's fantastic. I'm glad to see more information coming.

    That's my old stomping grounds. My brother still lives there. Now this is very interesting.

  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    In regards to the "middle finger crossed on top of the index finger" strike...

    I came under the impression that variations in technique were quite individual depending on personal preference.

    In karate there was taught the four finger spear hand (nukite). In this technique alone I was taught different ways but told that they were all the same strike, just variations. With the four-finger spear, I was to line up the fingers side-by-side and slightly bend them so that the index, middle, and ring fingers all hit at the same time. I was also taught to stack the fingers, placing the middle finger over the index finger and the ring finger to add support and strike with a single point.

    Could it be that the finger strike technique being discussed in this thread is just a variation of the one finger (ippon-nukite) strike using the middle finger for extra support?
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Dan getting closer

    The five animal arts, 36 is a number of families in the bubishi, myths about Zen and Buddha, and more...

    Gary :cool:

    By Deb Russell

    "This of course is the way to talk to dragons, if you don't want to reveal your proper name (which is wise), and don't want to infuriate them by a flat refusal (which is also very wise). No dragon can resist the fascination of riddling talk and of wasting time to trying to understand it." (The Hobbit, J.R.R. Tolkien )

    So what exactly is a Dragon?
    Dragon \'drag-en\ 1. a huge serpent 2. a fabulous animal usually represented as a monstrous winged and scaly serpent or saurian with a crested head and enormous claws.

    Dragons have long been an important symbol in many cultures. The dragon has been viewed throughout time as being both wise and evil, possessing a magical quality. In fact, some dragons were considered to be able to control the natural elements and being blamed for natural disasters. They were the primary source of rain, viewed as essential to life or could cause dangerous floods if they were not satisfied. The modern day dragon is viewed as being intent on destruction, sitting atop its pile of gold as portrayed in the works of Tolkien.

    When the dragon traveled north and east it was said that it lost its toes which may be the reason why the dragon is not such a dominating symbol in European and American cultures although there does exist such dragon symbolism.

    The Western dragon has four legs, winged (mostly), and fire-breathing. These dragons are mostly greedy and gold loving. Some dragons, called dragonlets, were small in stature, but were no less deadly. "St. George and the Dragon", "Tristan and the Fire Dragon", "Rustam and the Dragon", and "The Dragonet of Mt. Pilatus" are all infamous mythical stories relating to the dragon.

    Serpent Dragons are believed to be the first "dragons" that motivated the beginnings of later myths, legends, and stories. They are big, limbless, and wing-less. They are snake-like and live in oceans and other bodies of water. They were often noted for having multiple heads, like the hydra. Hydra was a terrible dragon that lived in the marshes of Lerna. The beast had numerous heads with the added horror that if a head was cut off; two would instantly grow back in its place. Hercules and his nephew, Iolaus, decided to hunt down Hydra and kill it. Hercules would cut off a head and Ioleus immediately burned the wound to prevent the heads from growing back. The central head of the monster was immortal, but Hercules overcame this obstacle by burying it under a rock.

    Taking much from the Greek and Arabian legends, the Christians were responsible for turning the Dragon into the image we generally associate with it, that of the fire-breathing monster. The Christians used the image of the Serpent, or Dragon, to represent evil, and commonly Satan himself

    The Eastern dragon is also the Oriental dragon. Eastern dragons can be from Korea, Japan, or China. There are slight but subtle differences between them. Many different animals contribute to the dragon's body. For instance, the dragon has the body of a snake, belly of a frog, scales of a carp, head of a camel, horns of a giant stag, the eyes of a hare, ears like a bull, a neck like an iguana, paws like a tiger, and claws like an eagle.

    Chinese dragons have five toes. The Chinese believe that all eastern dragons originated from China. They believed that when the dragons flew away, they began to lose toes. The farther and farther the dragons flew, the more toes they lost. Legend has it that Chinese dragons lived under the surface of the Earth and only visited the world in the second month of the Chinese calendar to cause rain and thunder. Dragons were used to mark stairways and decorate ancient monuments, buildings and martial arts kwoons (dojos).

    Korean dragons have 4 toes and are used in temples and higher-standard buildings for symbolic and protection purposes.

    Japanese dragons have 3 toes and are often seen in Buddhist temples to ward off evil spirits. Dragon heads can be seen on fountains, which are used for purification rituals before worshipping Buddha.

    The Vietnamese dragon can live in the sky, the water, or underground. It is immortal and does not reproduce. The "Giao Long", which are half lizard half snakes automatically become dragons after a thousand years. The dragon is a symbol of power and nobility to the Vietnamese. A five-clawed dragon was found on the official dress of the emperor.

    The celestial dragon (called t'ien lung) is a protector of heaven and guardian of gods. The spiritual dragon (the shen-lung) brings rain. The ti-lung was the dragon of the land and rivers. There is also the treasure dragon (fu-ts-ang lung) which holds jewels and metals. Some dragons are pictured with a pearl under their chin or held in its claws which represents "the pearl of wisdom". Some believe this is an egg which the dragon carries this way to keep it safe until its ready to hatch; but most people hold that it is a unique gem which somehow encapsulates the dragon's immense wisdom and hence has magical powers. The true symbolism attached to the pearl may be the dragon as "The keeper of the Tao" - meaning the round and perfectly balanced Yin and Yang symbol.

    Dragons are a primal yang force used to ward off evil spirits. Wearing a dragon is considered good luck, and many Chinese people wear dragon charms for this reason. Dragons were emblazoned on the garments of ancient Chinese generals. The Emperor alone had nine dragons on his brocade. The dragon was also a symbol of the emperor whose wisdom and divine power assured the well being of his subjects. Many legends draw connections between the dragon and the emperor. Some emperors claimed to have descended from the dragon. When an Emperor died it was said that he had ascended to heaven on the back of a dragon.

    From the Han dynasty and on (206 BC - 220 AD) dragons took a symbolic meaning based on their color. Chinese Dragons were entirely one color.

    The blue dragon was the symbol of the Emperor, the East, and the dawning of spring as well as the fifth element of the Chinese zodiac.

    The white dragon stood for the West and death. White is the Chinese color of mourning, so these dragons were a sign of death, which to the Chinese was merely another aspect of nature.

    The red dragon was a symbol of the West and the black dragon was a symbol of the North. Both were known to be ferocious beasts whose battles in the sky were the cause of storms.

    The yellow or gold dragon was a solitary creature, very enigmatic and the most revered. Silver dragons are good and said to be the most respected dragons by all of mankind. They rank as the largest of all dragons.

    The silver dragon myth is that they have the ability to morph themselves into the form of human or elf and can speak in human tongues. Silver dragons ward off evil and have two breath weapons. They can fire off a spray of frost or paralyzing gas. Their greatest strength is their magical ability to bring balance and harmony to situations especially in combat and training of the arts.

    There are many legends concerning the beginnings of the martial arts. According to oriental legend, mythical creatures called tengo, practiced martial arts and then taught it to worthy humans. Another myth is that Zen Buddhists were responsible for the spread of the martial arts. The monks watched the movement of the animals in order to create many of the movements based in the martial arts. Although there are many more, there are five basic animals in the animal fighting styles. The five animals are the leopard (fast & lazy, multiple striker), the snake (flexible, speed and pressure points with deadly strikes), the tiger (lazy & attacks when provoked in one strike), the crane (balance, draws opponent within their space and uses their balance against them), and the dragon (powerful & overconfident). The dragon has all the traits of the other four animals but instinctively avoids all the other animals' weak points. The tiger is symbolic of the physical world while the dragon signifies the mental or spiritual world. Together they represent a harmony between the two or the yin and yang. Dragons feared tigers, perhaps due to the fact that they were the "opposites" of each other.

    The characteristics of the dragon all add up to the number nine in which the Chinese believe to be a very lucky number. Nine represents yang in the Chinese disciplines, and is considered the 'good' side of nature.
    According to legend, the dragon had nine sons, each having a very strong personality. The Chinese dragon is made up of nine entities. It has the head of a camel, the eyes of a demon, the ears of a cow, the horns of a stag, the neck of a snake, the belly of a clam. Its claws are that of an eagle, the soles of his feet are that of a tiger and the scales that cover its body are those of a carp. All Chinese dragons are said to have one hundred and seventeen scales total. Eighty-one of these scales are "yang", or the active, dominant, moving force. The other thirty-six scales are said to be of "yin", or the passive, recessive, accepting force. This is said to keep the dragon in balance.

    A traditional long-term belief in Hong Kong is that nine dragons live in the waters of Kowloon, protecting the cities and keeping the people from harm. In Chinese history, it has been said that when a natural disaster occurred, a Chinese dragon was offended but the majority of dragons in Chinese culture are seen as strong and fierce protectors.

    The Chinese New Year's Day or the Chinese Spring Festival as it is better known, takes place in January or February, depending on the lunar calendar. Many Chinese dragons are paraded in costume along the streets. The dragon in traditional Chinese New Year's Day parades is believed to repel evil spirits that would spoil the New Year.
  7. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...


    last month's BB Magazine had a really good article on the 5 animals of SKK.
  8. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    John, as I said, I didn't want to make a flame war out of this, all I wanted is a clarification in the same way you asked Mr. Perkins to clarify on his article in Black Belt, "The Lost Interview". He could have taken that 'another way' but didn't and gave you a very respectful answer. Very simple, I have it in a print out that I'm looking at right now from you that I was mistaken when I stated John Leoning met Share Lew in San Francisco's Chinatown. You told me I was wrong, he met him in 1959 in Los Angeles. I went to my website and made the correction on your information. Simple request....a clarification for historical accuracy, no hidden motive, freak'n sorry I brought it up, don't be so sensitive when someone points out you may have been mistaken, it happens to everyone, you're no different. Things have been going very well on the forums we all participate in as of late and do to that we have all made good progress in our quest for knowledge, so I think we should all let our past problems go and move on a positive direction. As to your last question, 'no', I didn't. - Joe
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2007
  9. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Hi Dominic, the Master's Text just states 'two finger strike'. I remember using the immortal man and still do but that may be because he gave me the flexibility to use what I was comfortable with or I just started doing it on my own. It was along time ago and we were going over both systems, NCK and the system he left to Fred Villari later called SKK. Prof. Cerio, as you know, always gave some 'flexiblity' in forms and especially techniques. In Cat #2, he gave me a choice of starting it with a cat stance on both sides, right and left or back stance. In Circle of the Tiger, after the second double block, front kick and thrust punch, you have the shuffle up into the cross strike. When he taught me he gave it to me as cross knife hands to the neck w/ each knife hand hitting the carotids, as in SKK's #24 combination, it's the same in his videos but in the Master's Text it's cross double palms to the face. I notice other forms in the Master's Text done slightly different than he taught me also, as my era with him was in line with his video series. The videos came out around 1990. The Master's Text came out around 1997-98 shortly before his death, I have the exact dates at home so I can check but that should be pretty much on the money. - Joe
  10. bill007

    bill007 New Member

    Thank you Professor Shuras, that comfirm what i heard about Professor Cerio and the Kenpo evolution, unfortunately I only have the chance to see him one time before his death but he leave us a great heritage.

  11. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    You're very welcome, Dominic.

    John wrote: "that there was NO exchange of information. Wong and Lew were considered very senior to Leoning, and Leoning was their student."

    I know what you mean, but it's really too bad many of the past generation seniors felt this way. Imho, it hindered their growth as well rounded martial artists. I have a student who I'm probably over 20 years his senior in age and four dans higher, he's been a student since the kid's class. He's also a nidan in Hapkido and trains with some solid people in MMA (BJJ). I still teach him privately and by the same token I liked some of his Hapkido techniques of which he showed me and I adopted. I also am learning the rudiments of MMA/BJJ from him and have him take the lead in teaching it at my school to those who are interested. It has made me a better, more well rounded martial artist and has expanded the curriculum for my students. Back when I was a 6th dan, I took Wah Lum Kung Fu from a 2nd dan in SKK who had made the switch to Wah Lum and became a teacher under Chan Poi and Bob Rosen. I still teach some of what I learned back then today. I feel everyone has something to offer, I've picked peoples' brains who were proven tough guys on the street with no M.A. experience and learned something. I think today's seniors are more flexible in thought. - Joe
  12. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    John wrote: "that there was NO exchange of information. Wong and Lew were considered very senior to Leoning, and Leoning was their student."

    I believe there was plenty of exchange just because of the age's of the two at the time. This was not a situation of one being very young and not bringing any experience to the table and the other being very old and extremly wise.

    It was a situation that developed into a partnership of sorts later on, I have read.

    John Leoning was born in 1927 he would be 80 now if he lived.

    The writer of this article mentions Share K Lew will be 80 in March. I don't know how old this is, (below paste) but I have recently had some exchange with him, mentioned he is still doing seminars. Person writing may or may not be him?

    The point is John is coining the idea here, and not what the relationship of them. But at the time who knows, are you in the know John. I know you mention, things and throw names about. But do you know? As in were you there...Like I was with Leoning at his school, were you ever there John?
    How old are you? I am 65.

    John you denied this whole relationship (in San Francisco) for years and now you have joined in...Whats up with that, and some of the other things you are now admitting to, that we discussed in E-mail long ago?

    Charles Fisher being one thing and Johnny Leoning having a school and A. Reyes taking it over when Johnny Leoning left Hawaii. In fact I am sure you are not going to mention Bill Ryusaki much anymore, but they knew each other in Hawaii did'nt they?

    Regards, Gary
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2007
  13. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    If you don't believe the sources, then fine. But don't call me a liar because you don't believe what they said.
    You want to quote the above website, good. It say's Lew will be 80 in March. What year was that article written? Share Lew was born in 1919, so do the math. He is or will be 88 this year. It also says this:
    "Sifu lived and studied at Wong Lung Kwan for 13 years. He left the monastery in 1948, shortly before the Communist revolution and moved to San Francisco, where he remained inside the Chinese community for several years and studied kung fu with his uncle Lew Ben, the 6th grandmaster of the Hung Sing style of Choy Li Fut. "
    So that would put Share Lew's training as far back as 1935.

    Ark Wong started training in 1907, and started his first school in 1921. If he was alive today he would be 107.
    So, John Leoning's age has nothing to do with equal seniority with Ark Wong and Share Lew. They were brought up in the Chinese arts as children and were recognized by all in the area as seniors. Everybody recognized Ark Wong as a senior. If you look at old pictures from his class, you'll see notables like Ed Parker, Dan Inosanto, Tino Tuilosega, Hamea Lefiti, Doug Wong, Curtis Wong, and many others in his classes, as students, not equals.

    Here you go again Gary. No I wasn't there. And as far as other's who were there remember, neither were you. Remember a few years ago I asked you a few simple questions that anyone in Leoning's school at the time you claim to have been, could answer. You couldn't answer any of them. So I'm sure you probably went by the school, or looked in windows a few times,watched a couple classes. But nobody remembers a Gary Brewer.
    At least I am up front in listing sources of information. You never do, other then Wikipedia, and some off the wall websites.

    According to Share Lew, and also the website you listed:
    "In 1959, Sifu Lew accepted his first non-Chinese student, and in 1970, broke with tradition and became the first to openly teach the internal cultivation (chi gung) to non-Chinese. In that year, he and the late Khiegh Dhigh, a television actor and I Ching scholar, formed the Taoist Sanctuary in Los Angeles, the first Taoist religious organization founded in the United States to receive federal status as a church. During this time, he switched from teaching Choy Li Fut and began to teach Tao Ahn Pai kung fu which he had learned in the monastery. "
    So, that and what some of Leoning's black belts are telling me is that Leoning met Share Lew in San Francisco, but training didn't start until Lew moved to Los Angeles in 1959.

    Whether you like it or not. John Leoning was only a 5th degree in Kajukenbo when he died. So he never promoted Charles Fisher to 7th degree, like Fisher claimed. Leoning's highest ranked student at the time of his death was Carlos Bunda, 4th degree. He became a 5th degree from Emperado upon Leoning's death, and now is a 9th degree.
    When did I ever say Leoning didn't have a club in Hawaii? And why is it that I'm not going to mention Bill Ryusaki much anymore?
  14. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Mr. Bishop,

    Sometimes when you tell people the truth, they have to pretend they have more information, when in fact, they sound like a fool when they are proven wrong. I don't know anything about Kajukenbo, nor will I ever claim that I do...however, I have read all your posts and I respect you. It's not fair that idiots keep trying to attack when they know very's as if you're doing this :bang: when talking to them
  15. RevIV

    RevIV Valued Member

    back to questions for Matt Barnes?

    Will i see you tommorow?
    Make sure Chris does not forget his sticks.
    In Peace
  16. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    LOL! yeah...back to the thread topic might be a good idea.
  17. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Good idea. Sure makes it easy to get the thread back 'on topic'.
    Yep. I'm driving. Should be Don, John, Chris and I.

    I will try to make sure. I'm picking him up at the dojo.
  18. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    John, Bill Ryusaki and your statements are old news and you and I talked and no matter. The way you are twisting our conversations you are the one who is lying true. Simple..

    As far as Fisher, I am not sure but someone put him on the Family tree of Leoning. As far as his rank I have no Idea except what he said and I don't claim rank except I was there as a white belt. But for some silly reason you want to say I was not there at Johnny's location, and that is just BS on your part big time.

    Guf you werent there either, and pitching in with John is pure idiocy.

    I pointed out that I was not sure how old that paste was (Share K. Lew) nor do I care, there are others that know John and that is all that counts.

    You and I will never be able to agree for I know what you are John and that is it, pure and simple, you are a person with some historian background and you are misleading people for some reason about what we talked about. Pure and simple, again "yes" you are lying.

    You can twist it as much as you want. I was there and you were'nt...Simple.

    As far as Johnny's rank in Kajukenbo that might be true or not, but he held rank in other arts as well, and no I am not sure about those ranks.

    Lets do this John. You, I, Mike Rash and Bill Ryusaki can sit down and discuss it. I'll set it up. What do you say? All three of you are close to each other, an hour or so. Me, I'll gladly travel the 350 miles for the meet, how about It.?

    Regards, Gary
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2007
  19. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Thank goodness for the "ignore" function. Back to the topic at hand.
  20. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    To BGile

    Gary, If you want to attack me and call me out personally, it. However, do it in a more appropriate way. PM me. I went out of my way to not say your name because I'm not just referring to one specific person... No, I wasn't there. If you also read my post, I said I don't know anything about Kajukenbo. I'm 25 years old and there's no possible way I could have been there...especially since if you read my profile you'll discover, I don't study Kajukenbo. Lay off of me and don't attack me in a public manner.

    However, you and some others, hijacked a thread for questions to Matt Barnes, that Mr. Bishop started, and turned it into something else. You disrespected not only Mr. Bishop, but Matt and anyone else that was having a productive discussion on here. You need to learn how to private message people. Sure, I used to hijack threads on MartialTalk but I changed. Something happened to me that made me change and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

    However, you should's a lot more respectful than this. Sorry to any moderators that are reading my dribble...Heh, I should follow my own advice. I've said my peace and am going to find that "ignore" feature...still new to this forum.

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