Questions for Matt Barnes

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by John Bishop, Mar 8, 2007.

  1. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member

    It was not Steve(Thompson)Demasco, I know that for sure.
    As long as I knew Larry, even before he started with Tai Chi and Hung Gar, he used that term.
  2. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    I figured you guys might be able to shed some light.

    Yep, Joe had already ruled Steve D. out, and he thought that Professor Cerio may have used the term. Do you recall? Maybe he got it from Gan Fong Chin?

  3. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    No, I don't thing Gan Fong Chin because I believe Prof. Cerio met him around 1973, so the timeline is late from when Gm. Villari left him around '71. So, for now, I'll have to go with Mr. Villari got it from Prof. Cerio but I'll do some checking. - Joe
  4. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member

    Imm. Man

    I just looked it up in my 1970,1975 & 1978 instructor booklets.
    It is not listed at all in the 1970 book.
    It is listed in the 1975 & 1978 book.
  5. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Al, the first time I remember it was in 1974. Combination #4 was first taught to us with the two punches to the face after the opponent was proned out (like in #6 kata) and later, at purple belt it was changed to simultaneous immortal man strikes to the eyes and a one-two with the trigger fingers to the cheek bones, etc. The two punches was still used when the combination was introduced but when the student had better control the immortal man strikes to the eyes/trigger fingers replaced it. - Joe
  6. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member

    You are right, I re-read my 1970 book, I located a extension to # 4 combination, I hand wrote it in. I am guessing this was written in around 73-74.
  7. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Well, Al, we have it traced back to at least 73-74 time frame anyway. I'm still leaning toward it came from Prof. Cerio. I also was thinking whether it came from Ed Parker to Cerio/Villari. In his book (1963) Secrets of Chinese Karate, I recall it has the strike depicted with a picture (drawing) of 'the immortal man pointing the way' and it also shows the strike. I don't have the book with me right now but I'm sure I saw it in there. I recall Prof. Cerio telling me he would take Fred Villari with him to his workouts with Mr. Parker back when Nick was the northeast representative of the IKKA. This was around the late 60's. What do you think? - Joe
  8. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member

    Imm. Man

    I am leaning towards this myself. When I first learned #3 kata, it was not in the form then later on it was. I will dig through my old stuff to see if I can find when out it was added.
    I believe it originally came from Prof. Cero, as time went on Fred and his staff began adding it into the various material.
  9. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Al, sounds logical. However, I do know for sure the strike itself was in the original #3 kata because I had learned it that way from SGM. Pesare as he learned it (unmodified-original) from GGM. Gascon. Also, Prof. Cerio showed me an old film 8mm circa. 1960 of George Pesare doing the form (#3 kata which was originally called #3 pinan-not to be confused with SKK #3 pinan) in Bill Ryusaki's backyard out in California. Hope this helps - Joe
  10. RevIV

    RevIV Valued Member

    I learned the form from SGM Pesare too and it was in there.
  11. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Cool, does George talk about anything else he learned from Bill? Like what he learned from John Leoning?

  12. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Hi Gary, I don't believe he learned the form from Bill Ryusaki, but from Sonny Gascon, it's just that is where they were all working out that day when they decided to do some filming. I'll ask him but from what I recall I think they were a pretty tight group that worked out together back then, John Leoning Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman, Sonny Gascon, Joe "Black" Blacquera, Richard "Limo" Tanaka and Jack "Jackie" Chang. - Joe
  13. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member

    #3 Kata

    That's strange. I suppose it was just a typo over sight within the instructors booklet. My instructor was probably just following what was in his own instructors book.
  14. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Yes, I would think that is the case.
    Thanks Joe,

  15. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Al, I feel the strike was always there, in our system, going back to Mr. Pesare and Mr. Gascon, but whether it was called the 'immortal man strike' is what some may debate. I'm guessing it was. - Joe
  16. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

  17. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member

    They could have been there but never really pushed within our training. I remember being taught the "Immortal Man" but it was after I was a B.B.
    These are a few open hand strikes from my old memory,
    two finger, spear hand, center finger supported poke, thumb strike, trigger finger, fore finger, leopards paw, index finger poke, rake, claw, tallons claw, tiger mouth, sword, ridge hand, finger flick, snake strike, claw grab, palms.
    Strange enough a few of these are not listed in the instructors booklet. Did I miss any from back then?
  18. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    No Al, I think you about covered it. I was trying to think back when SGM. Pesare went over #3 if he used the term 'Immortal Man' strike. Now that I think of it, he may not have but I'm not sure. I'll have to ask him. Perhaps Jesse remembers??? - Joe
  19. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I always wondered if it wasn't called "Immortal Man" because it resembled the way Jesus is always portrayed in paintings:

    The symbol is from the older Pran Mudra from the Hindu religion and it's the sysmbol for healing the eyes (Ironically since it's the strike used against the eyes in Combination #4).

    Since Jesus is supposed to be the "Immortal man" I always thought that it was named for that hand posture. Shows you how the mind can work eh?

    Attached Files:

  20. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Here is a thought

    Is it like "Mushin", at the moment of being in that state?

    Immortality is here and now, and is not a speculative something beyond the grave. It is a lucid state of consciousness in which the sensations of the body, the varying and unrestful states of mind, and the circumstances and events of life are seen to be of a fleeting and therefore of an illusory character.
    Immortality does not belong to time, and will never be found in time; it belongs to Eternity; and just as time is here and now, so is Eternity here and now, and a man may find that Eternity and establish in it, if he will overcome the self that derives its life from the unsatisfying and perishable things of time.

    Whilst a man remains immersed in sensation, desire, and the passing events of his day-by-day existence, and regards those sensations, desires, and passing events as of the essence of himself, he can have no knowledge of immortality. The thing which such a man desires, and which he mistakes for immortality, is persistence; that is, a continous succession of sensations and events in time. Living in, loving and clinging to, the things which stimulate and minister to his immediate gratification, and realising no state of consciousness above and independent of this, he thirsts for its continuance, and strives to banish the thought that he will at last have to part from those earthly luxuries and delights to which he has become enslaved, and which he regards as being inseparable from himself.

    Persistence is the antithesis of immortality; and to be absorbed in it is spiritual death. Its very nature is change, impermanence. It is a continual living and dying.

    The death of the body can never bestow upon a man immortality. Spirits are not different from men, and live their little feverish life of broken consciousness, and are still immersed in change and mortality. The mortal man, he who thirsts for the persistence of his pleasure-loving personality is still mortal after death, and only lives another life with a beginning and an end without memory of the past, or knowledge of the future.

    The immortal man is he who has detached himself from the things of time by having ascended into that state of consciousness which is fixed and unvariable, and is not affected by passing events and sensations. Human life consists of an evermoving procession of events, and in this procession the mortal man is immersed, and he is carried along with it; and being so carried along, he has no knowledge of what is behind and before him. The immortal man is he who has stepped out of this procession, and he stands by unmoved and watches it; and from his fixed place he sees both the before, the behind and the middle of the moving thing called life. No longer identifying himself with the sensations and fluctuations of the personality, or with the outward changes which make up the life in time, he has become the passionless spectator of his own destiny and of the destinies of the men and nations.

    The mortal man, also, is one who is caught in a dream, and he neither knows that he was formerly awake, nor that he will wake again; he is a dreamer without knowledge, nothing more. The immortal man is as one who has awakened out of his dream, and he knows that his dream was not an enduring reality, but a passing illusion. He is a man with knowledge, the knowledge of both states- that of persistence, and that of immortality,- and is in full possession of himself.

    The mortal man lives in the time or world state of consciousness which begins and ends; the immortal man lives in the cosmic or heaven state of consciousness, in which there is neither beginning nor end, but an eternal now. Such a man remains poised and steadfast under all changes, and the death of his body will not in any way interrupt the eternal consciousness in which he abides. Of such a one it is said, "He shall not taste of death", because he has stepped out of the stream of mortality, and established himself in the abode of Truth. Bodies, personalities, nations, and worlds pass away, but Truth remains, and its glory is undimmed by time. The immortal man, then, is he who has conquered himself; who no longer identifies himself with the self-seeking forces of the personality, but who has trained himself to direct those forces with the hand of a master, and so has brought them into harmony with the causal energy and source of all things.

    The fret and fever of life has ceased, doubt and fear are cast out, and death is not for him who has realised the fadeless splendour of that life of Truth by adjusting heart and mind to the eternal and unchangeable verities.

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