Is Aiki ken based on "Dual" sword principles?

Agreed, excellent videos. Just out of curiosity, are the sword principles being demonstrated single or dual (twin sword)?

 

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no more please

 

?
It's just a question...hopefully one that can be answered. If not it's no big deal, I understand.

 

All our sword & jo work is based on Saito Shihan's weapons kata as it was taught to Sensei Coyle.

 

Thanks, Chris. Do we know if that is, in relation to aiki principles, single or dual/twin sword. I'm not looking to drag this into a twenty page discussion, just wondering out of curiosity.

If this can't be answered, or wasn't taught in that context to Sensei Coyles students, then I fully understand.

 

Why do you think it might be "twin sword"?

 

As best as I know (which can be wrong),

Aikiken is Saito Shihan's formalization of Ueshiba's boken practices with Aiki principles - using boken as a two-handed representation of a traditional katana i.e. no twin-sword.

In some Koryo footage e.g. Katori Shinto Ryu, you can sometimes see a second short wooden wakizash along with a boken - but both are used single-handed - in these instances.

You can see in Gerry and Chris's vids, secondary attacks/counters - to open up the opponent and prevent their recovery. Rebel Wado talked about this a while back.

For twin edged weapon arts, FMA has this i.e. double daggers or double stick representing double saber. Maybe in some other MA, but I cant see it in Aikido. Some teachers may have developed a boken and wakizash adaptation of Aikiken, along the lines of as discussed in Katori Shinto Ryu i.e. they may have some other training that influences them.

 

Try boxing with double daggers (tantos) and see how difficult it is to stay in non bacon-slicer mode.

2 variations:-
1) Empty hand vs boxing double daggers - seriously difficult - on the outside is your only chance.
2) Boxing with double daggers on both sides - sometimes called FMA fantasy Zorro dueling (my term.) Interesting training trying to stay uncut, but difficult to enter 2 blades to strike. Difficult against 1, never mind 2.

 

Thanks for your input embra

I train in two koryu one of them being rather famous for having nito.

I'm interested in hearing why izumizu is asking that question. Why as an Aikidoka he is viewing that clip in that way and why the question would come to him.

 

Thanks for the reply, embra.

As I said, not looking to get into a huge discussion on this.

@ Dean
Why? Well, I see the influence of twin sword in aikido. This is different from FMA. I was not looking for any specific answer, as I said this is not intended to be a drawn out discussion. I appreciate both Chris and embras reply to my question.

Hope that answers your question as well.

 

Honestly no it doesn't.

You are right it doesn't need to be drawn out in a long debate so could you please tell me what specifically you saw that made you think there was a "twin sword" influence? And what exactly you mean by "twin sword"?

Let's avoid going round in circles and have a nice clear answer.

Thank you.


If needed I can create another thread or a mod can do so specifically for this discussion.

 

As in weilding two swords, one in each hand. With twin sword one has the option of using principles of single or dual sword.

An individual who understands twin sword and trains proficiently can defeat a person armed with one sword.

O sensei would not have limited aikido to only single sword principles, as this is a concept he would have surely understood and trained in.

I can clearly see influence of dual sword in many of aikidos techniques. I can also see principles of single sword.

Anyways, I'm certain that there are others who can see and discern these principles as well...of course, then again I could be the only one in the galaxy to recognize such things.

In anycase, I hope this again answers your question.

Like I said, I appreciate both Chris and embras reply, and whether or not it is single, dual, or tripple sword principles, all in all some solid aikido.

 

That would be the best choice.

 

...and the other way around. If dual sword was so superior, why does not every ryu-ha have it?
Answer, because it depends...

This should really go in another thread.

 

Please define twin swords izumizu.


I'm about to pm a mod to ask them to snip this into a new thread.

 

The fact that you have to ask such a question proves you have no idea of Aikido other than what you may have read. They practice Traditional Aikido = 1. Taijutsu 2 Aiki ken 3. Aiki jo. If you had any experience in Traditional Aikido you would NEVER have asked

 

Sword Principles.

Hi Dento,
Completely agree with your comments.

I think that Izumi's questions highlight a lack of understanding all to common in Aikido today. Aiki Ken should not be compared to sword arts in terms of learning how to fight with a weapon, as its purely there as a vehicle for us to learn principles that we can apply to hand techniques. If we want to learn swordsmanship we should take up Kendo.

Thanks for all your comments they are most welcome

 

"If we want to learn swordsmanship we should take up Kendo."

No if you want to learn Kendo take up Kendo.

If you wish to learn swordsmanship then study kenjutsu and iai.

 

Seek not to know the answer but to understand the question.

You have misinterpreted both my question and my reasoning for asking such.

I never asked whether aikiken is based on dual sword.

Aikiken is single sword. How can it be dual?

I asked if the principles being demonstrated in those particular techniques were single or dual.

I also mentioned that I can see evidence of dual sword principles in aikido in relation to aikido techniques.

The technique being practiced dictates from where the principles come, and whether that those principles follow single or dual principles.

Aikido was formulated along the lines of mostly daito ryu aiki jujitsu.

Weapons are an extension of the body.

Take a closer look at the art you practice, and you will see the influence of dual sword. This goes beyond basic principles described in basic technique, which would be primarily single sword.

Also, aikido came before aikiken, did it not? Aikiken follows some basic aikido principles, not the other way around.

Why does not everyone practice with two swords? Considering the times and evolution of carrying a sword and kenjitsu/ kendo, and the loyalty to senseis of a particular ryu often to the death, and the lack of persons willing to seek out the few modern teachers in the world that teach these arts because of it's close association with other arts (Chinese, Korean...) it is not a wonder that such is the case. I'm not aware of any popularized sporting systems in which persons compete with two swords as in kendo.

 

Beyond belief.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? yes the concept of AI KI and DO are as old as the hills, But the MARTIAL ART of AIKIDO was born in IWAMA by Osensei. It became THE ART OF AIKIDO when he developed a full body system based on TAI -JUTSU, AIKI-KEN AND AIKI-JO which = AIKIDO.

You think Osensie developed a martial art called aikido then someone added in AIKIKEN?????

You have no concept of the sword at all, You asked such a stupid question. Why would you question the sword being single or DUAL WHEN YOU KNOW FINE THAT ITS AIKIKEN AND NOTHING ELSE AS THE ART SHOWN IS AIKIDO!!!!!

ONCE AGAIN BEYOND BELIEF