Is Aiki ken based on "Dual" sword principles?

@rebel
I wasn't getting at anything. I asked a question, recieved an answer about 80 posts ago. Even stated I did not wish to engage in a long drawn out debate. This thread should have, and could have very easily ended back with Chris Banks and embras replies to my question.

 

Oh man, you got me good. That's cool.

Ha ha. I waited for what seemed like weeks and not posting more because I didn't want to steal your thunder.

Well back to the real way to find answers :google:

 

.

 

Izumizu,

You're acting like a daft un!

Your comments at Scott are another poor troll attempt.

However if they do have some sincerity in them you might want to think about your use of terminology and why Scott said what he did.

I asked you repeatedly to define what you meant by "twin swords" or "paired swords" now as far as I can remember you dodged or ignored those questions.

With that in mind you might want to consider why people like Scott have mention "twin swords" or "paired swords".

You do realise that twin tends to dictate the same or matching as does paired. This is why we asked what you meant.


It's also why Scott said what he did.

Nito generally refers to two swords, this was Scott's point.

 

Hehe Izumizi is a tool. Possibly the most blinkered person I have ever spoke to (typed at).

I don't even think HE grasps what he is suggesting when he talks about 'paired' or 'twin' swords - I would defintely not consider it the same as nitowaza using daisho.

 

1) What does that phrase have to do with aikido?

2) The translation is incorrect. Knowledgeable-troll fail.

 

You're right it doesn't matter, wielding two swords has absolutely no more significance in aikido than the fact aikidoka have two arms with which to effect their techniques. - with or without a weapon.

Two tanto, two swords, two of ANY (non ballistic) WEAPON.. it wouldn't support the conclusion you're making because at the end of the day, it's the HANDS which hold the weapon(s), the body and ultimately the mind which controls what you do. The sword just happens to be a deeply rooted weapon in Japanese culture - hence why it exists in aikido in the form of bokuto.

Is it surprising to see concepts of movement and application within empty-handed aikido which mirror those of the sword ? No, not at all.

Are we in agreement that aikido is heavily influenced by the sword ? Yes, I think we can safely say that is a universally accepted partial origin.

However, Aikiken is NOT based upon the simultaneous utilisation of two swords.

Ask yourself a couple of simple questions.

1 - Who actually codified "aikiken" and are there any dual sword kumitachi ?
2 - What school of swordsmanship - which both the founder and his longest student studied together - has the greatest influence on what we see in Aikiken ?

Now ask yourself a third question.

Does either the Aikikai in Shinjuku or Shin-Shin Aiki Shuren-kai in Iwama teach aikido specifically with the concept of two swords as an integral principle in mind ?

-- I'll answer the third question for you - No they don't.

So what we have is a relatively small number of teachers who demonstrate there's a similarity between taijutsu, with that of utilising both a long and a short sword.

Wow... That's a revelation !! I just can't contain myself with the excitement I'm deriving from that, really.

Next you'll be claiming that aikijo really comes from the spear. Oh my, another revelation.

 

I heard a rumour that Aikijo was based on dual yari/spear...

blah, blah etc.

 

Well that's because the vikings invaded Japan and brought with them the art of dual throwing spears. How much viking influence is in your Aikijo?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujSOLISywnk"]YouTube - ‪viking vs samurai‬‏[/ame]

 

Vikings? Invaded Japan?

Oh,THAT explains the obvious dual single hand ax principles I always see in Aikido! And I thought It was just coincidence.

I knew there were longboat -(not knorr)- principles inherent in three of the 4 main directional energies in T'ai Chi, but this is a revelation.

Thanks,Rebel!

 

El Med, does more hot air get spouted about in the TaiChi threads than in the Aikido threads?

Both seem to attract a fair old pile of waffle from time to time - along with some very good content and discussion.

 

@Dave
That's kind of the long and roundabout way of saying technique based on dual or twin sword do exist in aikido, but are largely not found in aikiken.

Seven pages later (forgive me if your delay was due to any assignment you may have been on).

So the techniques based on single sword are found in aikiken? But not those which demonstrate principles of two sword? Is that right? A few schools have these principles and use them, and demonstrate them, but not aiikiken?

I'll answer that for you: no, these principles are found throughout all of aikido, it is incorporated into the practice. I would find it hard to believe that there is a line drawn that aikiken does not cross, excluding principles and technique because it might be two sword. Do you think there is that distinction in what you practice?

Probably not because aikido by it's nature is not limited in that regard.

@Scott UK
what does that have to do with aikido? Not much unless you include as the two united concepts of in yo, izumizu, yin yang being united.

 

How's your Buddhism Izumizu?


Might want to be careful you don't dig too deep a hole for yourself and get buried.


:whistle:

 

That doesn't explain your use of the term. Oh, and inyo and yin-yang are the same thing.

 

No the principles of Aikido are found in Aikiken, which are Hanmi/Awase/kokyu which are the exact same principles and body movements of Taijutsu. THATS IT.

 

@Dean
you mean the Buddhism that came from India? That Buddhism?

@Scott UK
Yes, the same. We covered that in a different thread. As is the inclusion of the allusion izumizu....in yo, izumizu, yin yang. All the same.

@Dento
Interesting, because those are the same principles found in many styles of MA that are not based on any kind of weapon at all...

 

Tis ok Izumizu it was a joke.

I didn't expect you to get it.

 

REALLY. Name one other Budo that is built on the 3 principles of Hanmi, Awase and Kokyu?

 

Personally I think the problem is that only one of the MAPpers here has advanced to that unique level of practice that develops dual personalities.

 

At this point I'm bowing out because I didn't sign up to MAP waaay back in 2004 to converse with an ass-hat.