Is Aiki ken based on "Dual" sword principles?

At about 4.46, you can see Saotome briefly working with 1 bokken and wakizash against 1 bokken

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bwNbWQUTxU&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Mitsugi Saotome - The Principles Of Aikido-1‬‏[/ame]

It looks as if the maai and weapon alignment has been adjusted to accomodate, but you can't see what is happening with hanmi posture.

 

Its funny I have been practising Tomiki Aikido for 36 years, both the Koryu Dai San Kata and the koryu Dai Roku Kata have weapons.

The Dai San features Suwari Waza, Tachi Waza, Tachi Dori, Jo Dori , Jo No Tsuki, Tachi tai Tachi. this is the principle kata for Shodan to Sandan examinations. Hideo Ohba who helped develop many of the Koryu No kata held dan ranks in many Japanese weapons systems.

It was Ohba who encouraged my instructor to take up Iaido and Jodo.

The Tachi Tai Tachi section of the koryu dai san is very close to the kendo no kata.

As far as I am aware Tomiki taught Aikibudo at Kenkoku University Manchuria where he developed some of his thoughts. Waseda Unversity was the testing ground for his system of Aikido.

Around 1976 the Shodokan Dojo was founded with Tomiki Shihan as its head, Mr Yuchiyama provided this 70 mat Dojo.

 

So anyway ... what exactly is a twin sword principal and how does it differ from simply using a katana or wakizashi on their own? Perhaps we could throw in a kodachi for good measure?

I ask because I don't think anybody has actually answered this question properly. Including unsurprisingly Izumizu. In fact I would appreciate it if Izumizu would take the time to rhyme off some twin sword principles and examples of them in Aikido without trying to waffle his way around the question.

And just to be clear. Claiming O Sensei studied art X is not an example of a principle being demonstrated in Aikido. O Sensei apparently also ran a stationary shop in Tokyo and joined the volunteer fire brigade when he was in Hokkaido. I've yet to meet an Aikido teacher who will claim basic book keeping skills or knowing how to roll up a fireman's hose will help us in our study of Aikido.

 

No need, aikiwolfie. This has already been answered by both embra and Giovani. If you wish to pursue this further in your own training or research, I suggest you start with their references as that would be a better route for you to gain a basic understanding of this.

Perhaps if you go on google? Or perhaps if you try to find some vids on YouTube of these sources and apply what you have been taught in your training to the principles they explain? Maybe that would be a good start.

Additionally, the topic of this thread is "is aiki ken based on dual sword principles."

I did not start this thread, I asked a question in another thread. I have already answered the question is aikiken based on dual sword. Aikiken is a single sword system.

EDIT: of course without this understanding you probably wouldn't think their sources are proper answers either. You could always travel to Aikido of Chicago and attend the seminar Giovani mentions...I'm certain you would be welcome there at anytime.

 

Your answer says "I have no clue".

 

I thought some of you might like this.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7LDXpAohjQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]YouTube - ‪Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu Kenjutsu Official Budokan Demonstration 2010‬‏[/ame]

 

Thanks Dean. I have seen it a couple of times already, good clip.

 

There is a good possibility that this 'twin sword' nonsense comes from all the people who have misunderstood a translation of Go Rin no Sho (including translator Mr Vic Harris who I have spoke with about it).

Harris Translation:

"the Way to learn this is to train with two long swords, one in each hand"

Errr, no.

 

Vic Harris is Izumizu?

 

No, Mr Harris understands budo.

 

In Iwama Traditional Aikiken is always about protecting the centre line. The hands never move out from the centre line. There is no blocking in Aikiken only moving the body while protecting the centre line with the bokken. We translate this into Taijutsu and use the hands in the EXACT same way. I cant see how dual swords can benefit this idea. Osensei developed Takemusu Aiki in Iwama not Iwama ryu. There was no style under Osensei. The term Iwama ryu was 1st used by westerners staying in Iwama in the 80s (Im sure). This prompted the chief (SAITO) to develop a completely different grading system from the mostly garbage that was being taught in HONBU.

 

Ah I see where I have gone wrong all my life, instead of seeking an instructor I should of gone on google and youtube for my source of information. If I had practiced Cyber budo my poor old knees would still be in tact.

 

The problem is everything Izum has been reading is wrong, at least he is consistent that way lol

 

I have no clue? Funny considering I am the one who brought up the topic in the first place. I think that once again you have misinterpreted my post.

My answer is really saying: Get a clue.

These principles, which I asked about merely as a question, are out there in the world of aikido.

I can only point to the mountain, and suggest a path up it. I cannot climb it for you.

Actually, I gave the clue. Now what you do with it is up to you. Here is another clue, incase you missed it:

There are aikido shihan that have described and demonstrated aikido with two swords, one in each hand.

Here is another clue:

They have been mentioned in this thread after I asked a question regarding such practice and principles, and I did not have to mention them, as other
mappers who have had this exposure, understanding, or basically searched for
more information have done that for me.

I am not the source of this information. It is already out there, part of aikido, part of the martial arts.

Good luck in working with these clues. Enjoy the process of discovering more about aikido than perhaps you have been introduced to, or thought there could possibly be.

 

Grrrrr...

It is the same principles that apply to single or dual swords. At first it was okay to pretend they are different because it was like when someone says "Aikido principles" to mean principles emphasized in Aikido... but there are no principles that are unique to Aikido... these same principles apply to all martial arts.

Now five pages of reading later we aren't any further on this. The same principles apply to single or dual swords, only the application of these SAME principles is different. What really the first questions should have been, IMHO, is "do people practice Aikiken with dual swords?"

Then a follow-up question is as simple as... what is the difference?

The difference is mainly in the maai, IMHO.

:bang:

 

Rebel, I am impressed at your understanding of the MA, and have been for some time. So now it comes down to recognition of the application of principles throughout aikido techniques and having an eye for and understanding of these differences.

 

Ohhh...the grading system changed. I see. Anything else change? Or is it still the closest approxation to the traditional aikido that O sensei brought with him to ibaragi, and was teaching at his dojo in iwama...which Saito inhereted?

 

<redacted>

edit...sorry, i re-read the response. nothing for me to add here.

 

any map-per would be most welcome for dinner at the giovanni household. don't hesitate to pm me.

 

Yes that's all very well and good and a whole lot of waffle which I specifically asked you not to do.

Now given that Rebel has halfway answered the question for you can you please give me a specific example? Name an Aikido technique (aiki-taijitsu, aiki-ken or aiki-jo) and explain what the parallel or similarity is to using both a katana and wakizashi at the same time.

I'd also like to know what specifically is it about aiki-ken that reminds you of using two swords at once.