Is Aiki ken based on "Dual" sword principles?

Comedy award of the year Candidate.

 

Osensei studied kashima Shinto ryu long after establisment of hombu dojo and later after establishing iwama ryu. The major influence of aikido philosophy derives from Shinto which has it's comonalities in Taoism.

Osensei began calling his art aikido in 1942, perhaps before.

He had already been teaching aikido, and to many students. Saito sensei formed aiki Ken largely from ksr.

Sword principles in aikido? Single? Dual? Yes, definately. Aikiken? Later in the timeline and coinsides with ksr and awarding of Saito Senseis study in that art.

Yes, aikido has both principles of single and dual sword/twin sword. Your position that it does not is comical and equally worthy of such an award.

 

OMG!!! If you understood ANYTHING about sword principles you wouldn't be asking this question. The answer is NO there are no dual sword principles.

The Bear.

 

Please define dual and twin sword Izumizu.

I'm a little confused as to what you actually mean.

 

Also,

a)What is 1 single principle of 'single' sword?
b)How does that 1 single principle of 'single' sword relate to Aikido (any aspect you want)?
c)What is 1 single principle of 'double' sword?
d)How does that 1 single principle of 'double' sword relate to Aikido (any aspect you want)?

Assume 'double' sword means 1 katana or similar weighted boken in each hand.

If one thinks logically about these 4 questions, a+b are do-able, c requires maybe thinking out of the Aikido domain and d is blindingly obvious.

This thread may yet rival roadtoad and wushurichard's collective best efforts.

 

i'm not going to attack or defend anyone, nor comment on the history of aikido, we can all pick up a book or two. and certainly, there are many posters here with much, much more experience in this art than myself. i can just relay what i saw in my brief time in aikido...

yokota shihan regularly shows aikido techniques holding a sword (or two) in his hands. this was great for a beginner. i was able to understand how closely linked sword techniques and empty hand techniques are.

since i love quoting myself, below is a quote in an exchange with koyo in the "a ha moments" thread, some time ago...

ymmv, fwiw, etc. etc...

 

Really? Tenchi nage with two swords? Come on Giovani... An aikido technique weilding dual swords? Imagine that...

 

Ive no idea where to begin with all your mistakes here, almost 1 in every line.

Osensei established Iwama ryu??????????? THE CRAZIEST STATEMENT YET

 

excellent...at least you are no longer going on about single and dual sword principles...

So, I suppose he never went to Ibaragi? He never instructed Saito? Never approved of Saito incorporating weapons? Never gave Saito the Iwama dojo he built or the aiki shrine, and the land they sit on?

And then I suppose that Saito altered the techniques and methods of aikido so that it was undeniably recognizable as its own distinct system, seperate from that of aikido?

I also suppose that O sensei never taught any concepts like takemusu at his dojo, in iwama, that he built?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwama_ryu

 

LOL I give up.

 

this doesn't mean that specifically dual swords are part of aiki ken, which seems like the whole point of this particular thread. i've seen aikido demonstrated with dual swords in order to enlighten the unenlightened. i was never shown a dual-sword exercise though.

 

Don't give up...

How about this? Perhaps this wording suits you better:

O sensei founded Iwama aikido. At the dojo in Iwama.

 

Playing Devil's advocate - or keyboard Musashi

and quoting from the oracle of all knowledge that is Wikipedia, there is this dude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsugi_Saotome

in particular this text snippet:-

Saotome is especially skilled in the use of traditional Japanese weapons, including the wooden staffs jo and bo, and the wooden sword bokken. He has also developed a system for working with two swords in aikido. Saotome feels that learning the movements and skills associated with proficiency in these weapons not only increases speed and agility, but harmony with one's partner. Grace and perfection are very important since a single accidental blow with one of these 'practice' weapons can be excruciatingly painful. Since aikido emphasizes harmony between oneself and the universe, respect for one's partner is very important. The consequences of your techniques are immediately obvious and intense concentration and training should ultimately lead one to a controlled and harmonious interaction.

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However, I strongly suspect that this dude is in the minority. Reading the text above you see that Saotome is implicitly skilled in some other arts beyond core Aikido. Furthermore, I suspect that this 'double' sword is boken and wakizash, not 2 full weighted bokens.

As Dento, Gerry and others have pointed out, Aikiken as embodied by Saito Shihan is one part (but essential) of the core of Aikido.

I do not believe that 2 full-weighted bokens can be used with Aiki principles e.g. fully blending, guarding centre-line, cutting with power through opponent's centre, navigating hanmi posture changes/hitoemi; as emboddied by major Aikidoka e.g. Saito/Chiba/Tamura Shihans and their students i.e. via the most classically accepted embodiement of Aikido.

Until someone trains with Saotome or gains more perspective, this question cannot be rationally resolved. However, I just cannot see how cutting fully with one boken, will mechanically permit centre-line exchange with second boken. I can see this being possible with a wakizash - though whether it would still fall under the umbrella of Aikido and/or AIkiken is a whole different matter.

These days, I have enough trouble with a) getting to an Aikido class at all, and b) dealing with 1 boken vs 1 boken.

I do know Taichichuan folk (2 individuals) who have adapted Wu saber form applications to work with 1 defender with 1 saber against 2 sabers - using light-weight bokens - because metal sabers are too risky and Chinese wooden Daos are destroyed in about 5 minutes. They use blending and body alignment principles BUT they are completely different from Aikido. The first saber 'chop' (using TCC terminology) cuts diagonally across centre-lines (covering the centreline diagonally) AND the second saber arm moves back slightly. Footwork and body-movement, then allow the second saber to cut diagonally in the opposite direction - but this breaks Aiki principles as such - hardly surprising given that it is TaiChiChuan.

I do not believe that 2 fully-weighted bokens can be used like this in Aikido as we commonly understand it, unless you are an absolute giant and possesed with extraordinary timing, blending and mobility skills.

Note in the text of Saotome, the emphasis placed on agility, harmony and grace.

 

"In order to enlighten the unenlightened..."

Very interesting statement, G. I cosider you quite fortunate in as you say, your limited time in aikido, to have been introduced to such concepts.

No, dual is not part of aiki ken, which is a single sword adaptation of mostly kashima shinto ryu.

 

Well, embra, I guess that places at least myself in the minority...and though I cannot speak for Giovani, he has by his own words seen this approach as well. Small planet, huh?

But I will also place myself in the majority... I too have the same troubles bokken vs bokken....though I have never, ever, not once had any trouble getting to any of my aikido classes.

 

So Saito created a distinct system separate from Aikido. I thought Saito was an Aikidoka as was Shioda, Tomiki, Tohei and all the other Shihan who created a system of Aikido.

 

i actually do consider myself very fortunate to have trained and to occasionally train at the midwest aikido center in chicago--i go back for the yokota seminar every year. 1.) the teachers and practitioners are great and the instruction is very balanced in all phases 2.) there are three seminars a year (2 open to non yudansha). the quality of the instruction during the seminars is amazing: yokota, yamada, konigsburg. in the past both the second and third doshu have come to teach seminars. 3.) the facility is amazing. hands down the best i've ever seen, in any art or dojo i've practiced at.

 

Yep, I have trained with mid-west before. Great summer camps as well.

 

Well, you could look at it that way, I suppose. But then I have to ask:

who gave Tomiki his land and dojo? Who gave Shioda his school? Who founded Iwama aikido? Who approved of the addition of a weapons system that closely mimmics ksr? Who brought aikido to Iwama? What is so vastly different in the takemusu aikido that O sensei was teaching, and at what point did it become its own style?

Tomiki has compitition... pretty different. Ki Society trains and administers testing in ki....

Is the addition of weapons what makes it different? Aikikai has weapons, as does ASU.

 

Essentially, the principle difficulty I see with double fully-weighted sword as it might be attempted in Aikido, would be the adjustment of hanmi posture to probably a wider posture - which you can see in Kashima Shin Ryu (albeit on Youtube.)

Some of you may know Paul Smith in London who teaches KSR alongside Aikido.