Is Aiki ken based on "Dual" sword principles?

Okay. Enough is enough. Izumizu. You ask of us if the principles shown in the videos demonstrate dual sword principles or not. I can honestly say for my part they don't. In my eight years of direct instruction from Sensei Coyle and Chris and Gerry's years on top of that time of instruction from Sensei Coyle I can safely say the principles were never taught to us with any mention of 'dual swords'. Now, Sensei Coyle said himself on MAP many times that there are no secrets in Aikido. He kept none of his experience from us in the time he shared passing on the art. If there was any worthy mention to be made of 'dual sword' principles in Aikido then he would have made it. I'm sure he was quite of the mind that one sword is more than sufficient. If you wish to suggest he simply never passed this on to us, or that he was somehow remiss in his instruction, then I would request you step away from your keyboard, and onto our mat so that way may 'discuss' aikido the way we have been taught to discuss it. On the mat. Through our training. Through the skin. It is really the only way to learn.

Yours,
David

 

Training Vs Theorising

Hi Dave,
Well put.
I purposely didn't get involved in this discussion as it seemed a bit of a waste of time. Theories are always better tested out on the mat. If your principles work , use them and if they don't discard them. Regardless of how much you might want to believe that they should work.
Gerry

 

You're welcome.

 

I doubt this will help much and Im sure Izu knew all this already lol, but this is Stan Pranins discription on Aikiken history

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/blog/...-should-weapons-be-a-part-of-aikido-training/

 

Most informative post in this thread.

 

Even the Japanese don't argue with Stan the man lol

 

I think this thread has gone about as far as it usefully can.

However, where 2 really useful threads (to me) could be created are

1) Essential elements of Aikido :- Taijitsu, Aikiken, Aikijo; as manifest in hanmi/kamae postures with awase, taisabaki body movement, rythym, timing, maai and other related aspects i.e. the real essential elements.

I know koyo addressed a lot of these aspects in his many informative posts, and I was gradually posting questions to him, to rebuild my picture of Aikido; until his passing (RIP and thanks ever so much for all your help.)

2) Different schools of Aikido - emphasising the positives.

In particular 1) is of interest to me, as I still revisit Aikido when possible, because it can be codified much more than other MA that I have encountered.

The principles in Aikido are useful to me in understanding other MA, but it requires painfully revisiting very basic elements. I hope this forum goes back to sensible discussion on Aikido.

Even in this thread there has been some positive input i.e. the quality of input of many members is always welcome by me.

I can ask questions, but I cant add much Im afraid.

 

Pro tip..

When your lips are blue and you feel like your head's about to explode.. it's time to take a breath. Then concede that whilst there are ass-hats on this forum, we'll never have what you hope for, unfortunately.

 

The unfortunate price to be paid for truly open discussion Dave.

But I get the frustration.

paul

 

So let's go with the position that I am full of "bull crap" as aikiwolfie points out and many of you believe.

Still does not change the fact that twin sword principles can be found in aikido, as demonstrated by Saotome, and as seen by Giovani in his limited exposure to aikido while training with Midwest aikikai.

Shinkei has even seen sensei demonstrating with two sword or bokken...albeit admitting these might be principle from other koryu..still aikido with two sword, like Saotome has done, and Giovani, who has not the time, rank, and vast experience in aikido that the majority of you here on MAP have, has been introduced to.

The reality of the matter is that this is all the evidence that is needed to support my claim that I see evidence of dual or twin sword in aikido. I did not "let others do the heavy lifting" they posted freely of their own volition. I can't help it if that is evidence that shows these principles at work by high level shihan in aikido.

These are the same principles, according to Saitomes Two Swords of Aikido video that are at work in many of the throws in aikido.

Then there is Nitto Hiden Ryu...which uses two sword techniques and was taught by osensei. This all comes from....daito ryu.

Additionally, both embra and Chris Banks answered this question early on, and answered it quite sufficiently.

Why you feel the need to defend somehow that which koyo did or did not teach you is beyond me. The answers they gave stood on their own, and apparently did not have to do with defending or laying claim to what koyo instructed.

Thanks kindly for the invitation to carry this discussion onto the mats, however, if you do not like the course of this discussion thus far, what makes you think that you would be apt to enjoy it any further elsewhere?

 

Er, 'two-sword' or 'nito' does not = 'twin/paired swords'.

 

ugh....i'd prefer if you kept me out of it.

the way i understood it at the time, the swords-carrying was just a way to show principles. remember the title of this thread here is "is aiki ken based on 'dual' sword principles". showing tenchi-nage with swords does not mean that aiki-ken specifically is based on dual swords. yokota also teaches some weapons classes after the seminar and i've never seen him use dual swords in those weapons-specific classes. again, my experience is limited so take what i say with a grain of salt.

btw....here's the link to most recent announcement for the mac (might as well plug my old dojo).

http://www.aikidomac.org/Seminars/Seminars.asp

i'm kind of waffling on whether to go this year as i might want to spend the time getting ready for a bjj tournament in december. undoubtedly though, yokota will show most or all techniques with one sword before showing it again empty-handed.

 

http://www.branchdojo.com/japanesesword.html
The use of two swords (nito-ryu) is also a substantial part of this style.

Does this look familiar, ScottUK:

ScottUK
26th November 2007, 08:11 PM
I would say yes, it is possible to defeat a nito swordsman with a single sword. It is ALL about strategy, but the levels of each kenshi would come into play too.

Rob is correct, HNIR has a significant study of itto (one sword).

This was copied from kendo-world.com

and this:

Many of the techniques outlined in Gorin No Sho are designed to use the two blades as a single unit.Er, no. Quite the opposite. Musashi advocates the practice of one sword used in one hand to develop two-handed use and later for nitowaza.

Yes, two sword...probably techniques in which there is a sword in the left hand, and one in the right. Unless you are aware of some other way in which a sword is weilded?

United as one? Still a sword in each hand. Or do you mean they held two swords in a hand...if that were the case then one could really hold four swords, but you don't hear much beyond itto and nito, now do you?

 

The cap fits you perfectly.

Fallacy.

What Saotome does isn't "Aikido" .. its HIS aikido, not mine, not yours not anyone's other than his and that of his students who choose to follow that path. As usual you cherry pick at an attempt to make a weak point stronger, and you fail [again]

To claim someone does something in a particular way, and that influences 'all aikido' is utter BS. Did you know that shuriken jutsu was taught by Saito Sensei to his students in Iwama ? The point I'm making is simple, you can't claim something is universally accepted as "aikido" - like you're trying with this dual sword BS - just because somebody includes something like using two swords. That's Saotome's way.

Find me a single piece of evidence which demonstrates/illustrates the founder utilising both long and short swords in aikido.

You don't understand what "reality" means.

Cool, well stop harping on about it and go do some training.

Er.. no. Do some more historical research before you make yourself look stupid [again]

 

Izu..

It's a good job I quote you in my replies given the habitual editing you do of your posts when your idiotic and ill-informed content is pointed out to you.

 

I agree that I have seen Hideo Ohba use two boken to show the principle of Gyaku Aigamae Ate. I also stated that within mainstream styles two sword have not been a part of the curriculum.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMIBiQ0UeNk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL"]YouTube - ‪Nito and gyaku gamae Ohba sensei‬‏[/ame]

You state some of us should go a find principles that you have found, but then you use the anonymity card. Like or loath us most people who contribute are known. I am very open to others views. But I can't take people serious when they hide in the shadows.

Although I practice a different style to many on here I have the utmost respect for them as many can back up their claims. I had a lot of respect for Koyo as he was not affraid to put himself on the line with his posts. What a sad day it was for both Aikido and this forum when he passed away, he was such an interesting man.

I think I am going to step back for a while as I am being drawn into the rubbish and BS, not a place I am comfortable with.

 

@Dave
yep, his aikido, and done at times with two swords. And it's not that that influences all aikido, it's that those elements already exist in aikido, and have since the days of daito ryu. And I never said anything as being universally accepted as aikido, infact aikido has so many facets it is impossible to limit it in such a context. Where did you read that I claimed this as uneversal? You didn't. I merely stated that I see evidence of dual and or twin sword in aikido.

Where in your mind do you equate "evidence of" with "universally accepted?"

as for my editing? Yes, map has that feature built in. I make good use of it. Doesn't change anything..my editing on post 93 was done at 330.

Your post was a full 3 minutes later.

And it doesn't matter...two swords united under one heaven, is still a sword in the left hand and a sword in the right.

 

@shinkei
you don't have to take me at all. Others who have also seen these principles, or are familiar with Saotomes presentation of such have spoken. You have my peirmission to now look back at their posts, and view them as a credible source.

Also, thanks for the video.

 

@Izu,

Hey man, this is getting kind of old. Instead of pointing to other people for answers... what in the world are you really getting at here?

I get some exposure to Grand masters from different arts... the one thing they all have in common is an incredible amount of knowledge that they can demonstrate in very concise manner. One time a grand master had been watching me and told me to knee my opponent in the face instead of what I was doing and then showed me what he meant. It was that simple and thus started my journey of discovery of how effective and brutal good knees to the head are.

You don't have to be a grand master to give valuable information in a concise manner.

Izu, what is something specific you can tell us about dual sword principles that could be of value to us?

I'm not looking for you to say, go read this or go watch that or go train somewhere, I want something specific that stands on its own as valuable in your own words... some gem of knowledge passed on to us.

---------------------

For the rest if you care, take it or leave it but here is a "gem" (or a lump of coal if what I say sucks).

Dual sword is close in fighting where you have to consider using both sides of your body for attack and defense. Single sword is further away so that you can use longer weapon and use mainly one side of the body for attack and defense.

Single sword becomes dual sword close in. Unarmed is close in and is more like dual sword even if the origins of the moves come from single sword. The single edged sword is a key for this transition because it allows for close in fighting.

Here is a double edged sword... the moves are for a further distance:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvd0IkXZ4lk"]YouTube - ‪Chen Tai Chi Sword taiji jian‬‏[/ame]


Here is a single edged sword... the moves are for closer in but still can strike at a distance.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWhr9x5X7cM"]YouTube - ‪Taiji: Chen Tai Chi Broadsword tai chi Dao‬‏[/ame]


There is no double sword any different than maai for the most part. Take a single edged sword and apply it close in and you get the double sword movements... But I'm waiting for Izu to tell me something about double sword of value on this...

Again, I could be completely wrong... I accept this... please set me right :Angel:

 

These words were with me during my entire practice, especially the second sentance.

I am truly sorry for your loss, and all of those touched by his presance in person and here on MAP.