I have not studied Aikido or Chin Na, but am very interested in learning. What originally attracted me to Aikido was the use of joint manipulation; however, I have seen, what looks to be, similar joint manipulation in Chin Na. Is there a difference between the joint manipulations of Aikido & Chin na? How about the take downs? Thank you.
Aikido is a synthesis of numerous traditional JAPANESE arts.It has no connection to Chi Na. regards koyo
I know Chin Na is also found in Kung-Fu systems, such as, Eagle's Claw. Although Chin Na & Aikido are not related styles, they do share similar joint manipulations, yes? Thanks again.
It doesn't follow that: because Aikido was created from Japanese arts, that it has no connection to chin na/CMA. In fact, Slipthejab had a good thread on a book that explored that exact possibility. However, I can't find the thread in his post history, because he posts too damn much. Check it out, it might shed some light on your question.
hahaha... wow can't believe you remember that post Yohan... the info of that book that explores some of the similarities and connections between CMA and Aikido would be: Aikido and The Chinese Martial Arts Its Fundamental Relations Vol 1 of 3 Author: Tetsutaka Sugawara & Lujian Xing Publisher: Japan Publications ISBN: 0-87040-934-4 http://www.amazon.com/Aikido-Chinese-Martial-Arts-Fundamental/dp/0870409344 (note that on that link you can browse some of the table of contents etc.) Now... that being said... I don't hold the book to be infallible and I hold some the assertions in parts of the book as questionable. I wouldn't take much of the Chinese history in this book as fact without some serious and heavy cross referencing to other more academic sources on Chinese history. I took many issues with the history as it's been presented here and if I recall (it's been a while) some of the inferences made about the connection of Japanese martial arts... So there may well be better books to spent USD$30. on. But it is interesting that you have a Chinese martial artist and a Japanese martial artist who got together and went over a whole lot of technique. It's been a long time since I did more than leaf through it. But it must have some value as I kept it on the library shelf.
here's the intro page...(you can view a few more pages a the Amazon.com site under 'excerpts') with a picture Ueshiba sensei.
There are also reviews of this book on the Amazon site. But I think a better place to read a review of it would be on the various Aikido forums...the one where you had to pay to be a member was a spectacular source of info on an issue like this... unfortunately I forget exactly the name of that forum as it's been ages since I practiced much Aikido. That being said... I think Koyo here at MAP could be a good source as well.
I have reopened the masters of aikido thread post eight gives details of O Sensei's early training in traditional JAPANESE arts. The books on aikido and chinese arts more or less consider the principles of martial arts from the perspective of the Japanese and Chinese cultures. They do not infer that one art came from another. At a high level it becomes apparent (to those with an open mind) that the principles of all martial arts are the same. Fighting spirit mastery of timing, distancing and decisive action.I have learned a lot about japanese swordsmanship from exchanges with the western swordsmen on the eastern and western sword comparison thread. It is a pitty that more people do not take the time to investigate properly the other arts then little time would be spent arguing on the web.At my traditional aikido dojo we share space with sambo and mixed martial arts and the respect is mutual. regards koyo
LOL at Dr Moose! This guy came here with a sincere question, the poor sap! Aikido does not stem form chin-na. Of course there are some similarities: there are only so many ways the body can move and be twisted. That book is nonsense, but on a 'cosmic innit?' scale well worth a read! It does have some good bits, but three volumes at that price... Read Koyo!
Aikido's origins are many. The founder of aikido, Ueshiba Morihei studied a number of koryu bujutsu, including Daito-ryu aikijujutsu, Kashima Shinto-ryu, Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Yagyu-ryu as well as sumo. The origins of a lot of Japanese martial arts, particularly jujutsu can be put down to two main sources; sumo and yoroi kumi uchi (armoured grappling). Grappling is an activity that can be found in almost every country's culture in some form. Iran, Mongolia, China, Japan, Europe, there are numerous different cultural disciplines still extant, very different in format and in ceremony, but when getting down to the nitty gritty of grappling, are rather similar in some aspects. Humans have two arms, two legs, and a head, there are only so many physical ways of twisting and manipulating the joints. However, this doesn't mean that all systems are pure and have been preserved in their natural form. With a number of Japanese classical jujutsu ryuha, a Chinese element did indeed have influence on their development. Feudal Japan had numerous Chinese trade missions and embassies in several domains. One notable Chinese martial artist famous in Japanese budo history is Chin Gem'pin. Some sources note him as a Chinese born naturalized Japanese. Others note him as being a foreigner to Japan. He is noted as being one of the main influences for atemi in Japanese classical systems. Chin Gempin is recorded to have taught Chinese pugilistic arts to three ronin; Fukuno Shichiroemon (Founder of Kito-ryu jujutsu & Ryoi Shinto-ryu), Miura Yojiemon, and Isogai Jirozaemon. It is possible that some form of qin-na was also taught, since almost every school of Chinese gung-fu has some sort of grapping or joint locking skills, however limited. Another example is the founder of Yoshin-ryu jujutsu (no longer an extant ryuha today), Akiyama Shirobei was a physician (More accurately, a paediatrician) who resided in Nagasaki, however learned medical skills in China as well as a limited amount of Chinese martial arts (Mainly striking & grappling) for over a decade. Since his martial repertoire was limited, his school was not popular, so he analysed the techniques he was taught in conjunction with the medical knowledge he revised and recreated his syllabus to create a system of over three hundred techniques. Yoshin-ryu jujutsu had great influences on Shin No Shindo-ryu, Tenjin Shinyo-ryu (Which Ueshiba studied briefly), Ryoi Shinto-ryu, Ise Jitoku Tenshin-ryu and Shindo Yoshin-ryu. Striking and locking existed in Japan waaaaay, before Chin Gempin was even born. Takenouchi-ryu (Takeuchi-ryu) is listed as the oldest recorded jujutsu school in Japan, dating back to 1532. That is for the most part, an indigenous fighting art of Japan. To say that the Japanese culture is pure and without influences from other countries is a misconception. The original inhabitants of Japan were the Ainu, who were Caucasian. The Yayoi and Jomon people were from Korea, Mongolia, Malaysia, mainland China. The descendants are the people we are familiar with as Japanese today. The Japanese language uses Chinese characters. Certain cultural activities are found in other neighbouring countries, albeit with a slightly different and individual flavour. Japanese martial arts are Japanese, but some Chinese influences have been known to creep in with certain classical schools. Hope I haven't muddied the water too much.
While one would be hard pressed to say that Aikido and Chin Na influenced each other it can be said that different arts can come to have the same or similar techniques with each being independently developed. To illustrate this point my late sensei, Jan de Jong, while travelling through Indonesia in the late 1980's came across a style of Pencak Silat called White Crocodile. de Jong pointed out to the practitioners that it was in many ways similar in technique to Aikido, they in turn said they had never heard of Aikido. Similarities occur in many martial techniques and don't necessairily have any influence from the other.
What was it Bruce Lee said again? something like..until a human being comes along with 3 arms or 3 legs there can be no different styles,only the human being style.. or something like that anyway!
That's very interesting, I got that book too. I became interested in Chin Na cause of of the possible relations. I also had a friend that studied chin na, and looking at some of the techniques presented to me, I see a very strong connection to each other. Although I am interested in it, I don't want to practise it, cause I think the modern modifications of the locks practiced in Aikido and Ju Jutsu today are more refined for the better. I do have to say though, that looking at the conditioning techniques of Chin Na, really attracted me, as they look like they would develop some kick **** physical development and speed and hand eye co ordination. I have this strange feeling that it will enhance my aikido so i am doing more research into it and adding it to my personal programme of training for my Shodan. Sure, Aikido isn't a purely physical martial art, but physical is part of it. I feel that it beats Ju jutsu and Aikido in this regard, and I will have to confirm it later on when I've been doin these excercises for awhile. I would have believed that maybe Chin Na had a history with Ju jutsu or at least an influence through China just like Okinawan karate supposedly was. While yes, Aikido did stem from pure Japanese Martial Arts, those precursors to Aikido seemed to at least have some influences from Chin Na.
Sorry no evidence, just supposition. I should clarify myself to say that I don't necessarily believe that it is what happened, but I'm open to the possibility. I'm curious that's all, and don't care either way really.
My research has led me to conclude the following... Jujutsu was developed by the Japanese Samurai cast in ancient times as an unarmed fighting system. The exact origins of Jujutsu are not clear. It is thought that as with most fighting arts of Asia, it origins can be traced back to India. This is based on the idea that the Chinese priest, Chin Genpin, brought the art of Kempo to Japan in 1659. He then taught three ronin (masterless samurai) who each intern founded their own styles of Jujutsu. However, there is evidence that jujutsu existed before 1659. It is more likely that Jujutsu evolved from indigenous and not foreign arts. There exists many technical similarities between Jujutsu and Sumo Wrestling. Sumo has its origins in the art called Sumai, which is documented as early as the 8th century A.D. Wresting in Japan, in general, can be traced back as far as 24 B.C. Historical documents say that the Emperor Suinin ordered two strong men, Nomi-no-Sukune and Taime-no-Kuehaya, to wrestle in his presence. The fighting consisted of mainly kick, which suggests that the techniques were more related to Jujutsu than Sumo. Nomi-no-Sukune gained the upper hand in the match, breaking the ribs of his opponent. Then, elated by his success, he then went to the length of trampling upon and breaking the loins of his vanquished competitor, leading to his death. This record is generally accepted as showing the origin of wrestling in Japan. From the history of Daito Ryu, we have Yoshimitsu Shinra Saburo Minamoto, testing techniques, including locks and strikes on cadavers, over 900 years ago. This lead to the development of many of the grappling techniques not seen in Sumai, Sumo, or Yoroi Kumiuchi, and therefore Jujutsu The History of Aikido is then that of a purely indigenous Japanese art. This does not mean that the techniques in Chin Na are not the same. I mean you can only twist the wrist in two directions and bend it in two directions. From these come all the combinations for locking the wrist. Regards,
