When are you thinking of going next year Toby? We could meet up. I've got two trips to Japan scheduled for next year.
Hi Steve, You're scaring me... You, me and Ellis, together, loose in Japan. They'll never let us come back. Never. Your's are already scheduled? We haven't nailed down times yet. I'll e-mail you after talking to Ellis. Toby
Toby, I'll be the shortest dude there of the three! :cry: Nope, one of my trips is not scheduled yet. It's OK, just as long as the trips are a reasonable amount of time apart from each other.
We also have the second technique, we refer to this as gyaku katate dori. I can't find my list of Tenjin waza, so I cannot remember the name (Oni-Kobushi comes to mind). We have a very similar method with the single lapel grab (Kata-Eri-Dori ?), but this is done as a standing technique so hence the difference. The same is true about Tento, the bear hug and strike to tento, we use a similar method to escape a standing bear hug from the front. We have a kuzushi that is the same as Morote-Dori. I don't doubt that these are in other styles of Jujutsu. But the fact is Mochizuki was not exposed to any of these. He states that he Gyokushin Ryu he learnt had similar techniques to Aikido, but he does not credit it as the source of any techniques except for the principle of Gyokushim which we apply to our sutemi. Kano did not teach any of the old methods, except for the Koshiki no Kata of Kito Ryu, and the Shinken Shobu no Kata (Kime no Kata), which is based on Tenjin. This last form does not include anything from the Tehodoki no Kata! Hence, as suggested by the training methods in Iwama, and the changes made to "Aikido" in 1972 when it was systemised, and the fact that we still have these techniques in Aikido, you cannot say that Tenjin is NOT in Aikido. I said I agree with you. Yes I am not happy that they have no documents, but this still doesn't negate the fact that I would not write my secrets down to be read, or record them to be heard.What I do not agree with is that not believing the reported history of Daito Ryu is the objective point of view. Simply because it is not. I may not like it, but it is common sense. When you have a full picture, I will be happy to read it, until then you have your evidence, they have theirs. In fact, I look forward to reading what you come up with. I hope it will be like Stan forcing the Aikikai to accept the history of Aikido. Then maybe the people in Daito Ryu will accept the correct version of their history. The Keppan was the knock out blow with Kashima. It had to be a part of O'Sensei's training. The same is true about his name on the Daito Ryu registrar. Regards,
I'm sorry but both these statements seem illogical to me. Believing that the history of Daito ryu is not literal fact has to be the objective point of view because supporting evidence of Daito ryu being 900 years old doesn't exist, while contradictory evidence does. Therefore, common sense says the art was most likely founded by Sokaku Takeda in the early 20th century or slightly earlier, not 900 hundred years ago. Even in the absence of evidence on both sides, Ockams Razor would still favor the art not being 900 years old. People are free to choose to believe whatever they want. If people want to similarly believe that Shinkage ryu was literally invented and taught by mountian goblins as their scrolls claim, be my guest, but don't expect me to come along. I can recognize a myth when I hear it and Daito ryu's official history is a wonderful myth. Regards, Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Wait... Toby.... You mean that Hisamori didn't encounter a Tengu who broke his sword in half and told him to use one half as a short sword before creating a series of 25 waza using the Kogusoku (Several of the kata of which cannot be performed unless there are three people present...I'd always assumed it was the Tengu's little brother who "helped" on those..)..And several other kata for the Takeuchi Ryu? Damn... I'm going to have to tell my teacher... He'll be ****ed.. (He'll smile ironically as it happens and train with me a little better the next week if I know him....)... Great post..Myth is fun, but mostly seen for what it is here, especially by those inside the school..To not do so is delusional.. And speaking of delusions, that would be a good answer for how many of these Tengu were seen.. Regards..
this is a little late in the game to be commenting yet i just saw the thread and had a question. the local aikido instructor claims that a chinese style called bagua had a lot of influence on aikido. any truth? should have inserted the customary disclaimer first. not a student of bagua or aikido. never even seen the former and only vaugly familiar with the latter there. just a curious jeet kune do student asking a question that's not in any way intended to fuel a debate. while im stopping by what's the basic differences between bagua and aikido? if somebody thinks the arts could be related do they have similar concepts?
Hi windtalker I think if you read this thread you have enough information to decide for yourself. As an aikidoka and crosstrainer I have found that all martial arts have the same principles. One major difference in aikido is that we do not use postures relying on a more natural way of moving (jeet kun do?) Always protect the centreline (win chun?) unbalance and throw (judo?) atemi (karate?) weapons training (kendo?) etc...... You can see where I am going with this. As a swordsman I started a thread eastern and western swordsmanship comparisons. WE found that cultures that had never met at the time were developing martial arts the concepts of which were almost identical. I never presume to tell someone what to think, I have posted what I think. You of course are free to make up your own mind, (now is that aikido or JKD?) regards koyo Tengu I cannot believe that any modern adults can believe in tengu next thing we shall be believing that martial arts masters can throw without touching dodge bullets etc.
Hi NJ Perhaps I was unclear in my post. Attack at all times develop a stronger fighting spirit and dominate the fighting spirit of your attacker ,while coming directly from a sword art as you say, is the kokoro kamae (mental attitude) brought to HAND techniques. Back to do not fight an attacker even when unarmed fence him. regards koyo Cutting through an attack.(emphasis on cutting)
Actually, the Kime No Kata (Formerly called the Shinken Shobu No Kata) doesn't only contain techniques parsed from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu's Shodan and Chudan skill sets; The set also contains techniques from Sosuishi-ryu. The technique, suri age from the idori & sode dorifrom the tachi-ai are actually verbatim techniques from the aforementioned ryuha. The idori version of ushiro-dori is absolutely not in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu whatsoever. You just won't find that roll or nut punch there in that ryuha's syllabus. Awesome technique, but it just doesn't come from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. Even if it is rather implausible, against the cultural norm and absolutely not the way things were done in classical Japanese martial traditions? How often do you go to Japan to do research in budo?
Slipthejab, As an official student, no. in my capacity as the administrative head of Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu, this would be politically difficult. I do maintain good relations with many people in the various branches of Daito ryu. I know Katsuyuki Kondo quite well and served as a official advisor to Okamoto Seigo's Daito ryu Roppokai for several years. I have trained with individuals in Daito ryu off and on for almost two decades. I did train as a student of Yanagi ryu, an art historically associated with Daito ryu before my official duties to Shindo Yoshin ryu required that I withdraw from Yanagi ryu and focus my efforts entirely on Shindo Yoshin ryu. I have only high regard for Daito ryu as representation of classical budo. I find the art technically sound and worthy of the respect it engenders among those in budo circles. I hold Shinkage ryu in similar high regard, especially since the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu is the only extant school still maintaining the waza of the Matsuzaki branch of Shinkage ryu. FWIW...Yoshin ryu, the most unbiquitous school of japanese jujutsu, with documentation going back to the early 1700's, is the root art of both Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu and Tenjin Shinyo ryu. It's history rife with mythological lore. In many of the old Yoshin ryu densho you can even find drawings of techniques being taught by kurasu tengu. My teacher, Takamura Yukiyoshi even claimed to have seen a tengu on Mt Kurama! ....but he did like his whiskey. All the best to you gentlemen, Toby Threadgill / TSYR www.shinyokai.com Delaney....Ellis in in Greece teaching a seminar right now and will contact me when he returns to discuss our trip to Japan in 2008.
That's because you've been hanging around in the Ninjutsu forum too much Slip! Fantastic thread Gentlemen, really informative.
Personaly my worry is the "influences" today on martial arts and aikido in particular.Well maybe I don't worry too much because I practice sincerely cross train and have a lot of friends in other arts plus share our training time with sambo wrestlers and mma and we all get along great. What BOTHERS me is why is it so difficult for some ma's to get along? regards koyo
I don't doubt that others arts are included in the kata. I was simply told that when the high level people in the kodokan what to learn how to do their kata properly, they go and see Kubota Sensei (7th dan Kodokan). Hence, I assume that the people in Tenjin know how to do this kata. I have only done Tehodoki and some Shodan, so I have limited exposure to Tenjin. We do a slightly different version of the kata in Yoseikan here. We end the throw from ushiro dori with a strike to the face. I believe what we do is an older version of the kata, but I have no evidence of this, except, it is similar to the technique as done by Mifune in his idori. Having done a little Sosuishi-ryu I would say that the roll up and punch may be like them, with their rolls to spins to kicks. I openly admit that I am an arm chair researcher of Budo (I try and spend most of my time researching in Physics, but occasionally interesting things will appear), I like to let other people do the foot work, then I read the literature. Neither side of the discussion about Daito Ryu’s history has convinced me who is correct. I understand that there is evidence against them, and you may uncover more. The articles referenced before makes assumptions and suppositions. I think that it will be hard to prove your point beyond all reasonable doubt. But the beauty of this, is that we must use what we say is reasonable. I understand that you think that you point is reasonable, but you cannot force this upon people. I am a reasonable man, and when you have satisfied my sense of reason, I WILL agree with you. Until then, I am sitting on the fence, happy for those who study Daito Ryu to believe what they are told, since it doesn't really affect me. The one thing I have learnt, which was a great shock to me as a younger man, believing I was a logical reasonable person, was that how people had very different points of view based on the same evidence. I was a juror and I watch the complainant testify, and I thought, well that was clear as day, guilty, I made this comment to the gentleman beside me when we went to deliberate and he agreed, then we talked as a group. The other 10 people said, not guilty. I was shocked. Did we just watch the same interview? Luckily in Physics I don’t have this problem. The laws of physics are the laws of physics. People do try and interpret things but I can always give them a situation where their idea fails, hence they accept the law. Regards,
Under George Marton or Bill Haines? They're rather good aquaintances. Since Kubota sensei is the Menkyo Kaiden - Shihanke of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, he holds a yearly seminar at the Kodokan focusing on Kappo-ho which is mainly reserved for 5th-6th dan. He has on occasion taught the kime no kata, nage no kata & Kodokan goshinjutsu set as extra curricular studies in addition to the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu kata. Rolls to spins to kicks? Where is that in the syllabus of Sosuishi-ryu?
I've just noticed something interesting in Pranin's book Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu - Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters. The information in the book about the early history of Daito-ryu, including the Takeda family lineage chart on page 20, is attributed to Tokimune Takeda. Tokimune says in his interview that he got the lineage information from records kept at the "Isle Shrine", and that those records are typically available only to priests (the Takeda family descended from a family of priests). As far as I can tell, there is little other mention in the book of Daito-ryu's history before Sokaku. Also, it's not explicitly clear that the family lineage chart is directly linked to Daito-ryu, although I believe it is implied in Tokimune's comments. So, I suppose that future research that aims to amplify our understanding of Daito-ryu's history will have to address this lineage chart. Koyo, Sad but true. I've spent most of my training time in an old form of Hapkido (a pre-Ji Han Jae style), and there is more than enough dissension in the Hapkido world to go around. Even in Daito-ryu, there was quite a controversy when Kondo was named headmaster shortly before Tokimune's death.
