Yeah, I bet the tengu never had put up with this crap. The tengu I know are always abit touchy about respect for all martial ways and never accepted personalities or politics on the mat. The Bear (Spirit).
I trained mostly with George. Paul was another black belt, and there was another, I can't quite remember his name, Ian keeps coming to mind, but I think it was Rob. Bill was at some of the training sessions. The rolling drills we did at the beginning of each class was a forwards roll to sideways flat, spin 180 degrees, then side kick to the leg of the opponent. I have no idea about the syllabus, but I did this in a Sosuishi-Ryu Jujutsu class. Regards,
Hi Bear Your good friend Chris is at this moment training in Thailand complete with his red hair short stocky body and a broken nose courtesy of Gerry.So you can expect stories of Scottish tengu any day now. regards koyo
NJ, The above referenced comment by Tokimune Takeda and its proper context is covered very well in this essay by Ellis. The lineage information he saw at the shrine apparantly extrapolates on a story from the Kojiki and is again mythical, not historical. http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2755
Toby, thanks for that... this excerpt from that article seems to sum it up pretty well: "Takeda Tokimune has an apparent trump card in his account. He stated in one interview, “The record of this story is kept at the Ise Shrine. Although these documents are not allowed to be shown to anyone except Shinto priests, since the Takeda family is descended from a family of Shinto priests, I was allowed to see them. When I went there to check what my father had told me, I found these documents.” The problem, however, is he doesn’t state what the documents said. Does it say that this primordial account is the roots of tegoi or sumo, or more directly, that this was the root of Daito-ryu itself? We will never know the answer to this, so this statement is a dead-end that establishes nothing helpful to our investigation." Perhaps this is why Pranin left his account as ambiguous as it seems to me when I read it (please see my earlier post). So, do you believe it's fair to say that there's a school of thought that believes that Daito-ryu really only started with Sokaku and his teachers? Thanks again... this is an excellent discussion.
ICHI GAN In martial arts the utmost importance is placed upon OBSERVATION hence the principles of Ichi Gan Ni soku San tan Shi riki.These principles state that Ichi tan (First the eyes) we must learn to see (understand) clearly .Ni soku second the body, studing movement . San tan develope technique. Shi riki forth execute boldly.All effective martial arts principles however the first is OBSERVATION. When Jigoro Kano was promoting Kodokan judo he was also involved in the preservation of traditional japanese budo. To this end he established Kobudo Kenyukai (classical martial arts research association). After seeing a demonstration by O SEnsei Kano decided to ask that Ueshiba teach some of the Kodokan students. He sent Minoro Mochizuki to become uchideshi. This from Minoro Mochizuki "I was never taught by Ueshiba sensei directly with him telling me to do this or that.Whenever he did a new technique he would correct all the others ,He never corrected me.I WOULD SIMPLY WATCH AND UNDERSTAND. The reason was I had studied lots of other martial arts so I could do the techniques. This from Yoshio Sugino Minoro Mochizuki was a serious man but quick tempered so Jiro Takeda was sent to look after him. Ueshiba sensei never taught Mochizuki personaly saying that Mochizuki need only observe and he would master the techniques. Both Mochizuki and Sugino were approached to inherit the legacy of aikido by O sensei. Sugino was already married and could not enter the Ueshiba family. Mochizuki went on to develop Yoseikan budo incorporating aikido, jujutsu, judo, karate and sword ( I cannot be certain if it was Katori shinto ryu or Kashima shinto ryu or both) FRom this I conclude that a master of martial arts can most certainly absorb principles of other arts by observing.Of course others may see little. regards koyo
It was just Katori. Mochizuki Kancho actually convinced Sugino Sensei to take up Katori, as none of the others in the Kenkyukai were studying it any more. Sugino took to this art whole heartedly. Mochizuki did also study an style of Iaido, and Jojutsu through the Kenkyukai. I will look these up. One of the biggest insights I got to Yoseikan was watching gradings held in Montreal. Just from watching the grading for 5th Kyu, I understood how Mochizuki had characterised our Te Waza, and how they related directly to the idea of Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo, etc, and hence how they were structured in other styles. (Please note that I am not saying I am a master I am saying important realisations can be made by diligent observation). Regards,
Hi ogmios Did you know that Sugino went on to do the choreography for a number of Akira Kurosawa films.? He taught Mifune some Katori and Kashima sword and then had him corrupt it into Aragoto style (unsophisticated/brutal). Here Kurosawa watches (observes?) while Sugino instructs Mifune on the set of Yojimbo. regards koyo edit You must have heard the stories about Toku sensei who taught Mochizuki when he was young. Now that would make a great Kurosawa movie.
This is a fantastic thread. Is there any consensus about what the parent art(s) of Daito-ryu might have been? If we agree that Daito-ryu is not 900 years old, and is likely a Meiji-era development of Takeda Sokaku, there's still the question of what exactly he based it on. I've often heard that the art was 'based on unarmed sword strikes,' but I find it hard to believe that someone - even Sokaku - could come up with a comprehensive system of jujutsu simply by extrapolating from kenjutsu and without some some significant jujutsu base. Was this base his father's sumo? Or was it another, older, system of jujutsu that he learned? This is a great time to be alive for people interested in genuine martial arts history. The advent of the Internet, combined with the large number of English language material being reported back from Japan and China means that a lot of myths have been exposed within the last 10 years or so. I say that is good. For those interested in Chinese martial arts, there's also an enormous amount of great material coming out that gives much more plausible origins for taijiquan and xingyiquan for example. Both arts are also claimed to be around 900 years old, but taijiquan is probably from the 1600s and xingyiquan as recent as the mid 1800s!
Hi nickh Sokaku Takeda began his martial arts training in 1870 studying Ona-ha-itto Ryu Kenjutsu under Shibuya Toma.In 1875 he joined the Jikishinkage ryu uder Sakakibara Kenkichi where he developed into a powerfull swordsman.In 1898 he became a student of Saigo Tanomo Chikimasa who taught him the grappling techniques of the Aizu samurai.He named his approach Daito ryu aiki Jujutsu.One of his most famous students was Morihei Ueshiba who founded aikido. My own thoughts on Daito Ryu begining with Sokaku Takeda are not as strict as those of a more historical approach, I tend to think who taught him and who taught them and could possibly trace that train back to who knows where.Perhaps Daito ryu was born through Sokaku Takeda, the influences?????? regards koyo
Nick, Well, we know for sure Sokaku trained as an official student of Ono ha Itto ryu and Jikishinkage ryu. Beyond that was his reported experience in sumo and exposure to Tanomo Saigo's Oshikiuchi. But what is Oshikiuchi? No body knows but most researchers believe it was a system of court etiquette, not budo. Tanomo Saigo's life was quite well documented and there is no evidence he ever learned or taught a sophisticated system of jujutsu. He was a VERY busy administrator for most all his life. And as you say, Daito ryu from sumo and swordwork. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying that because Daito ryu is too complex and sophisticated and art for that. Sokaku in my opinion probably learned jujutsu somewhere and Aizu was chock full of jujutsu dojo's during Sokaku's formative years. As for which one and why doesn't he reference it? That's a good question with many plausable answers. With more research maybe that will come to light, but research is expensive and time consuming. Toby Threadgill/ TSYR _______ Delaney, Ellis will be in Europe a bit longer as his wife is a ballet instructor. I guess they've gone north for some seminars in Eastern Europe now. Not sure when he will be back but regardless, it looks like the trip to Japan in 2008 might just be me and Ohgami Sensei. What were you thinking schedule-wise?
While at the jikishinkage ryu school of Kenichi Sakakibara Takeda was exposed to instruction from visiting masters of other schools . It is said that he became skilled in 18 maerial arts through this study including sword staff bo naginata etc.Through introduction from Sakakibara he also visited dojos to further his training.More than enough experience to develop Daito ryu. regards koyo Kenichi Sakakibara
Where does this quote originate because I think its a bit suspect? It's a great hypothesis if true.....but still flawed. Why? Bear with me......I am uniquely qualified to evaluate this due to my experience in Shindo Yoshin ryu. The founder of Shindo Yoshin ryu, Matsuoka Katsunosuke, was a fully licensed student of Sakakibara and even functioned as the temporary Jikishinkage ryu hombu dojo-cho when Sakakibara was away working as a bodyguard for Tokugawa Iemochi. He would have enjoyed an experience very similar to Sokaku Takeda since he trained in the same dojo under the same teacher. However when Matsuoka chose to found Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu he didn't rely on Jikishinkage ryu alone (or other undocumented influences) to develop a jujutsu system. He based the curriculum of Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu on formal study in Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu and Miura Yoshin Koryu jujutsu. To come up with a sophisticated grappling curriculum you'd have to be deeply exposed to something more technically relevent. Jikishinkage ryu does not include a significant yawara/ jujutsu curriculum. It is a weapons school. The following is not necessarily indicative of any direct connection but is interesting in its striking similarities. Daito ryu Sokaku Takeda studied Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu, Ono ha Itto ryu kenjutsu, Hozoin Takeda ryu sojutsu and a hitherto unknown grappling system. In the early 20th century he christened his teachings Yamato ryu. Soon after, Yoshida Kotaro explained to Sokaku that the kanji should more properly be pronounced Daito ryu so Sokaku altered the name accordingly. Shindo Yoshin ryu Katsunosuke Matsuoka was fully licensed in Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu, studied Hokushin Itto ryu kenjutsu and Hozoin Takeda ryu sojutsu. He was also licensed in Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu and Miura Yoshin Koryu jujutsu. He founded Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu in 1868. Shindo Yoshin ryu Ohbata/Takamura ha Shigeta Ohbata was a contemporary of Sokaku Takeda and Yoshida Kotaro. He also studied Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu with Sakakibara. He further studied Hozoin Takeda ryu sojutsu, Totsuka ha Yoshin Koryu jujutsu and Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu. He was issued menkyo kaiden by Katsunosuke Matsuoka and founded the Ohbata ha Shindo Yoshin ryu in 1895. His grandson was my teacher, Takamura Yukiyoshi. Toby Threadgill / TSYR
I don't think anyone can disagree that the term Daito Ryu started with Takeda. I personally think that the term Aiki is suspect as being a historical term. But this does not (I will regret this ) eliminate the possibility of a secret clan or family art being taught to him. If internally it was not referred to as a jujutsu, it is logical that when charged with spreading the art, as Kano was spreading his. A suitable name was given to the art. Regards PS Koyo, yes I am aware that Sugino Sensei was the man who did the choreography on some of Kurosawa's movies with Mifune. I did not know that he taught him Kashima as well. May be this came from the Aikido Kashima influence.
That is a very good question, and I imagine that some of the possible answers might not reflect very favourably on Sokaku. [At least we know that, living in the era he lived in, he didn't learn from Nihon Kobudo videos, the way certain other contemporary 'soke' of supposed 'aiki' systems have done ] Perhaps this next question is very naive, since I don't know very much about koryu arts, but wouldn't it be possible to tell by observation which jujutsu style(s) went into the mix for Daito-ryu? I mean,we can see that aikido's taijutsu comes from Daito-ryu, and that the aiki-ken comes from Kashima Shinto-ryu, so wouldn't it be possible to do the same for the Daito-ryu techniques?
Hi Nich Aiki ken is not a "sword school" as such it is a vehicle by which the aikidoka can bring sword PRINCIPLES to the empty hand techniques.Many of the cuts in Kashima shinto ryu if executed empty hand would leave opening that the sword does not.Any sword work that O SEnsei incorporated into aikido had to flow immediately into empty hand techniques and be executed empty handed from a triangular posture. Using these principles the immediate "identity" of which sword school would be obscured. As I posted earlier the head master of the Kashima shinto ryu gave a demonstration alongside Saito shihan (aiki ken) and said that he could not recognise Kashima sword in aikido other than the first kumi tachi. You are correct that Kashima was the sword school that most influenced aikido however it was the PRINCIPLES more so than the techniques. regards koyo
Hi Toby First off I do not at all envy you the task of documenting anything related to Japanese martial arts.There is so much misinformation out there and some "authentic" pieces are also open to question. Myself I take a much more pragmatic view. As Scottish national coach for aikido for the ten years that Chiba shihan was resident in Britain I wanted to be able to answer questions on aikido if asked. This being Scotland the question most asked was does it work, can you prove it. My "answer" was to cross train. This led me to research and I am sure it is in one of Aiki News (before it became journal) Daito Ryu Specials that I read these details. On my notes it says AN79. THat would be aiki news issue 79. In the same article it spoke of a military accademy run by the shogunate where numerous exponents of traditional arts were invited to teach and Takeda was present. This and the numerous accounts of his Musha Shugyo leads me to the conclusion that he had more than enough experience to found Daito ryu. Best wishess in your future reasearch (I still do not envy you the task) regards koyo
Hi Koyo, We're probably talking in circles... There's no doubt that Sokaku had enough experience to found Daito ryu. The question remains, from what? He obviously had extensive training in something beyond Jikishinkage ryu and Ono ha Itto ryu...very similar to Matsuoka Katsunosuke. Matsuoka's jujutsu training came from two lines of Yoshin ryu. Takeda's???? As for identifying the source from observation only, well that's pretty tough because the waza in Daito ryu, especially the basics, are very common in almost all Japanese jujutsu schools. Furthermore although the waza was common, his teaching method was uncommon. He reportedly never taught an orthodox set of kata. He didn't have a dojo. He just traveled around teaching whatever, wherever, changing it as he went. It was Tokimune and Takuma Hisa that attempted to codify what Sokaku was teaching into a more traditional pedagogy. I personally suspect the above quote is generally true. That Sokaku was exposed to many schools of jujutsu, including Yoshin ryu, and cherry picked what he liked, extrapolated beyond what he was taught and from the totality of his experience, created Daito ryu. But I also suspect there remains an undiscovered more formailzed area of study of jujutsu. I do not believe the oshikiuchi of Tanomo Saigo is the source of this. It was something else, something more substantial that created the foundation or kihon upon which Sokaku would build such an intricate expression of jujutsu as Daito ryu. Who know's. Maybe Sokaku's name is on a schools enrollment register just waiting to be uncovered by someone crazy enough to go looking for it. Or maybe that page was torn from the register and tossed in a fire because Sokaku was such a pugnacious little handful.........and we'll never know the full story. Nice corresponding with you gentlemen, Toby Threadgill / TSYR '
