Well due to the morphology of the ryuha and it's collection of techniques & lack of historical documentation, a more plausible theory is that it isn't as old as is claimed. It's very similar in content and execution to Edo-jidai & Meiji-jidai jujutsu technique. Sho Sho-ryu Wajutsu in Iwate prefecture have a similar kind of lineage and lists as far back as the 68th generation (Which technically takes it back to the Heian-jidai). With a number of schools, this can be quite common. Somewhere in the lineage is the chuko no so (The actual founder of the school, who systemized the teachings formally). Academically, it just goes to show that what is written cannot always be taken literally, it has to be read in the proper context. In addition, the proper term for secret or inside school is otome-ryu (御留流 ). Historically, otome-ryu were reserved for retainers of a feudal domain and practicioners of outside domains were prohibited by law from studying it. It's kind of a misnomer really, since otome-ryu were specially designated as official. There would be, in fact, more official documentation on an otome-ryu than on an unofficial ryuha that was operating in the domain's area. One of the koryu I happen to study was an otome-ryu for a Kyushu domain. Historical documentation exists. For the Satsuma-han, Jigen-ryu was it's otome-ryu and they have an abundance of historical documentation as well. Shingetsu Muso Yanagi-ryu, Jigo Tenshin-ryu, Tatsumi-ryu, Shinkage-ryu - All otome-ryu with documentation still surviving. Japanese, both feudal and modern were devils for recording, noting and documenting subjects that had anything to do with their domain or lifestyle. If Oshiki Uchi, Takeda-ryu Oshiki uchi or Daito-ryu were otome-ryu for the Aizu domain, there would be at least some documentation.
Indeed, Kashima Shinto-ryu. Not Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu. Something Ueshiba already had schooling in.
As I said before, I agree with you. and unfortunitly the context of a document is sometimes of more inportance then its content. I mean can you state when greco roman wrestling actually began? Them same is true for all old school martial arts. I did not say that ALL Kyushu arts were not listed, I said there was a tendency for them not to be (woops, just read my post, sorry, I meant that there was a tendency for them not to be listed ) I still stand by the fact that a secret art would not be documented on an official register. The lack of internal documentation is a problem. But it is not like Takeda was there star pupil (I will do some research and get back about this ) Regards,
My point is that O'Sensei would have observed Katori while at the Yoseikan. Like he observed Kashima at Hombu.
With that logic, I could go to Meiji Jingu Honno Kobudo Embutaikai (A Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai & Japan Education Ministry event promoting classical martial arts) this coming November and observe Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu and say I have learned it. Doesn't really ring true, does it?
Okay, let me try this again. He observed Kashima, then he practiced without an instructor, as stated by Kisshomaru. If people say some the kumitachi in Aikiken are basically the same as those seen in Kashima, then obviously his observing was good. The same could then be said about his exposure to Katori at the Yoseikan. I DON'T think YOU could do this ( ). BUT, I think O'Sensei could do this. This is based on the idea that once you have mastered one art it is possible to learn another. Due to the underlying principles being the same!
It has already been established that he was a registered student of Kashima Shinto-ryu for a number of years before world war II. He did keppan and his signature even appears on the eimeiroku of the ryuha. Again, using your logic, if he had learned Katori Shinto-ryu, why isn't there any evidence of this in aiki sword work? Kashima Shinto-ryu, yup. Very evident in Iwama. TSKSR, uh-uh. Without a doubt, if you have a decent amount of experience in a number of koryu, things become very clear. There are still people who study multiple koryu. BUT, the bottom line is,Ueshiba never formally studied Katori Shinto-ryu. His numerous students did, Mochizuki, Sugino, Sekiya etc. That doesn't mean he did. He may have seen it demonstrated, but it is presumptuous to assume that he used it in his aiki-ken, without proper evidence.
Yeah I said it before! But he didn't get personal lessons from the instructors, he watched his son and others train. Then when the instructors left, he practiced with Kisshomaru! I never said he used it in Aikiken! Hence, I need no evidence! I said he would have observed the katori training at the Yoseikan, and could have learnt some things from Katori. Look at Sugino Sensei, his Aikido and Katori go very well together.
Hi, Look, Graham. Is there anything in Ueshiba's aikido the that looks remotely like TSKSR? Nope. TSKSR has a very distinct look and feel to it. It is unique among the schools of koryu in numerous ways. Claiming an influence that is as historically tenuous as only observing and is then technically absent is not real influence no matter how hard you try to make it so. This is from an essay by Ellis Amdur over on Aikido Journal. "Tenshin-Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu (TSKSR) “entered” the Kobukan through three young men: Mochizuki Minoru, Murashige Aritoshi, and then later, Sugino Yoshio. Mochizuki and Murashige were dispatched, along with Tomiki Kenji, by Kano Jigoro. The former two men studied Katori Shinto-ryu at the Kodokan, something Sugino studied in far more depth as well. Ueshiba regarded Mochizuki and Sugino quite highly, even considering them, separately, as prospective son-in-laws. Is it possible that TSKSR had a significant influence on Ueshiba’s sword or staff? It is very unlikely - for several reasons. Technically speaking, TSKSR has a quite unique style of kata — long chains of waza linked together, with killing techniques “hidden” within the linkages. Bo techniques are done in “overhand” fashion, with a lot of body-displacement and crushing blows: spear methods have a characteristic tucking of the butt of the weapon underneath the armpit upon the thrust; and sword is typified by methods that insure that one avoids one’s helmet and other armor when cutting. Ueshiba could have, as Sugino describes, absorbed through observation if these young men practiced TSKSR while at the Kobukan — but no tincture of its methods are apparent in his sword methods. At any rate, Ueshiba could not have directly learned from them. They were his students, and such a role reversal was unthinkable, particularly because they were not teachers, merely young men, avid though they might have been. It would have been a loss of considerable face if TSKSR techniques started to appear in Ueshiba’s sword or staff, he thereby copying his young, not-even-fully-trained deshi." So Im with Ellis. There's no TSKSR evident in aikido. To claim there is looks like a rationalization created to link aikido to yet another famous koryu in a clumsy attempt at marketing. Stick with the historical facts and the obvious technical legacy visible in aikido's syllabus. Another lesson...Also be careful not to jump to conclusions even when you see an apparant technical connection. Do your research and find supporting evidence before you arrive at a conclusion. For instance, looking at someone like Saito Morihiro performing aikido and assuming everything he did came from Ueshiba's teaching is a mistake. I have two friends who were longtime uchideshi in Iwama. I once noticed Saito performing a technique no one else in aikido did. When I brought this up both these individuals were shocked that I noticed this. They independently confirmed that Saito in his early years studied jujutsu in addition to aikido and added these waza to his aikido. So Ueshiba didn't include this technique in aikido but Saito added it to his. The problem occurs when some individual notices this and incorrectly proclaims that this technique is proof Ueshiba studied this XYZ school of jujutsu. All it takes is a little digging to find that such conclusions are found to have no legs. Now..... As for Daito ryu....It's historical claims of being the "secret" teaching of the Aizu clan going back almost 1000 years to Shinwa Saburo Minamoto, is fantasy. Shinkage ryu claims it's roots go back to teachings performed by mountain goblins. No serious scholar takes this literally because everyone knows that budo histories are rife with this sort of fantastic story telling. The problem occurs when people try to rationalize these fantastic claims as literal history. They're myths....Thats all. Every school of budo has its myths. Budo historians looking into Daito ryu already know it is an Edo period creation. That is obvious by evaluating its technical syllabus. In addition, accurate records do exist identifying all the schools of jujutsu existing in Aizu going back centuries. There's no way a "secret school of Aizu jujutsu" as complex as Daito ryu could exist for centuries without ANY mention in historical documents. I could go into depth on this but I frankly can't take the timel...LOL I suggest reading these essays by my friend Ellis Amdur over on Aikido Journal. We are considering a trip to Japan in 2008 to follow up on some new leads that have recently come to light concerning independent historical research we are conducting. One of these leads concerns the research Ellis is doing on Daito ryu. http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2610 http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2702 http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2755 All my best, Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Yes he did get personal lessons from the instructors. He lived in Ibaraki prior to and during WW2 and attended the dojo there. How else would his name, signature and keppan be on the eimeiroku? Sugino was Sugino. Ueshiba was Ueshiba. You don't know for sure, have no evidence and are basically grasping at straws. :topic:
Okay, what part of COULD did you gentlemen not understand? I have a photo of O'Sensei in Jodan, this looks like the Jodan I practice at the beginning of every Katori class. Does this mean it came from Katori? No. Could it? Maybe... The fact that O'Sensei was a non conformist meant that he was apposed to kata training. But that does not mean he dismissed an art because it only had kata in it. All the art he learnt were taught via kata. With regards to my comment of Saito Sensei, in his commentary on Budo, he clearly states that O'Sensei taught three methods for escaping a gyaku hanmi katate dori. I believe Saito Sensei was a Karateka, I have never heard reference to him being a jujutsuka. Do I have a problem with him adding things? No. In Yoseikan we arguable have the largest technical syllabus of any Aikido school. The method we use to escape this grab is like Koyo described Saito sensei teaching what he was taught by O’Sensei. This is the first technique of the Tehodoki kata in Tenjin, something like furuidori, I can't quite remember as it has been a while since I have practiced my Tenjin. With regards to Daito ryu, I am stating their view, and their reasoning as to its technical development. I am not a student of Daito Ryu, so I don't really mind if Takeda was taught secret techniques of the Aizu, or from Tengu in the Mountains, or learnt all his stuff from the Tenjin and Yoshin Ryu's. It makes little difference to me. When has logical evidence against a flood killing all life on the planet stopped people believing in the bible? Again a secret is a secret, so it is hard for THEM to prove THERE point. Regards,
Without doubt, to even watch the practice for extended periods, you would have to do the keppan. Show me some evidence that states he took classes. I have shown you an interview where Stan actually asked Kisshomaru about it, after he found the evidence of the Keppan. This clearly states, he only WATCHED. Then afterwards practiced with Kisshomaru. My point here is that Sugino Sensei clearly unified his approach to Katori and Aikido. So did O'Sensei in general with his Aikido and Aikiken. Hence, we cannot say what is and is not in the sword work of Aikido, SINCE IT IS AIKIDO.
I am at work now, so I can't get into this in-depth, but.... The technique name is furi-hodoki. Do you know how common that technique is in Edo-jidai & Sengoku-jidai jujutsu ryuha? Takenouchi-ryu, Ise Jitoku Tenshin-ryu, Sosuishi-ryu, Shindo Yoshin-ryu, etc. Hell, it's even in Daito-ryu, it's that generic. Graham, this isn't a shot at you, it's more like trying to understand where you are coming from. You said you're a scientist (Your profile says physics ) how on earth can you say as an academic, staight-faced - "BELIEVE!" when there's a lack of proper evidence? If I started babbling on about physics in such a way and said "Believe, don't mind the lack of evidence!" you'd bloody well tear me apart.
Gentlemen, the best of luck to you if you do undertake this trip. IMO it would be invaluable for serious, impartial people to pursue the groundbreaking research that Mr Pranin did into the the origins of Daito-ryu. His work is pretty much all we have right now in the English-speaking world. While I have no doubts about his veracity or scholarly diligence, I think all of us would agree that it's essential to get other informed perspectives on such a historically important subject. Time moves on, and information becomes available that wasn't available to previous researchers.
Regarding aiki ken I had been supplementing my aikido training with Omori ryu iai and after finding that my aikido kamae was changing , shoulders squaring up, rear heel rising I was advised to stop. Years later I asked Sekiya shihan how he could train in aikido, Kashima shinto ryu and Katori shinto ryu. He replied that he kept them apart. When I asked about O SEnsei's sword influences , Sekiya shihan said that it was the principles of these arts rather than the mechanics. He explained the attitude of swordsmanship attack at all times develop a superior fighting spirit and dominate the spirit of the attacker. (something that some would say is unaiki). The perfect timing and distancing and body alignment that O Sensei displayed was a demonstration of traditional sword principles. Aiki ken is not looked upon as a sword style. It is a vehicle which allows the aikidoka to incorporate sword principles into the hand techniques. During one of the friendship demonstrations organised by Stan Pranin (can we ever repay that man?) The head of the Kashima ryu stated that he could not see Kashima ryu in the aiki ken other than a similarity in the ichi no tachi the other four kata in this series are not really recognisable to ANY traditional school . Having trained in aiki ken for decades I can watch Kashima or Katori and it is the timing and decisive action that I immediately recognise. I personally believe that what ever O Sensei studied or viewed he saw it from his own personal perspective on his way to creating aikido. NJ As you say time moves on and information becomes available but sadly so too does misinformation. So I add my thanks to those on this thread who are researching. regards koyo
Hi guys, Thanks for the encouragement. I just returned from Japan. My personal area of research is focused mainly on Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu and how it was influenced by two separate Yoshin ryu lineages and an obscure lineage of Shinkage ryu. The reason Ellis and I are considering a trip in tandem is we have located an area where our research seems to overlap. If we can secure this source it could lead us in some very interesting directions. And yes, Stan Pranin really has compiled an astounding amount of documentation on Aikido and its history. People in aikido have no idea how comprehensive his library or documentation really is. Being a professional photographer, the first time I visited Stan I was stunned as he showed me his collection of photographic negatives of Ueshiba. He believes he has in the neighborhood of 15,000+ negatives. He also has so much written historical information on aikido ( articles, interviews etc... ) that he doubts he will ever be able to publish it all in his lifetime. For this reason alone, any further research on Daito ryu history beyond its links to aikido is pretty much beyond his interest. Such research in his mind resides with other interested parties like Ellis Amdur. All my best, Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Best wishes for your trip and research Toby. Another piece of history often neglected is the fact that O Sensei considered at least three budoka to inherit his aikido. These being Mochizuki, Sugino and Nakakura. All excelent swordsmen. It would have ment marrying into the Ueshiba family and only Nakakura was prepared to do this. However things did not work out and he left to pursue his first love..kendo. regards koyo O SEnsei and Nakakura kyoshi
Hi Koyo, I believe that you have just explained the essence of Daito-ryu, even though your context was a sword art. As the "mainline" organization teaches, dominating the spirit of the opponent is the essence of aiki, as is attacking decisively at the very moment you perceive an attack. Just look at Daito-ryu's very first technique (ippondori)... you overwhelm the attacker physically and mentally as soon as he chambers his attack. Yes sir, a very valid point. Which is why it's so important for people like you, Toby and Ellis to persist in your efforts. We passive observers owe you all a debt of gratitude. It is remarkable how much misinformation is floating around (in the States, at least) about Daito-ryu. And how many impostors there are who claim to be teaching "Aikijujutsu". As that fellow from England (can't recall his name ) said ages ago, "The truth will out."
Just after that discussion I was asked by a karateka friend while Sekiya shihan was present..."Isn't aikido a resposive art?" Sekiya shihan looked surprised when I answered YES.Then smiled when I added but we tend to get our responce in FIRST. regards koyo ALL of the original shihan stressed that we attack his intention to attack. The truth will out? wasn't that Spooky Mulder
