No...LOL Shin no Kurai is not the same as ippondori in Daito ryu. I was just using it as an example of technical variation existing within the same jujutsu lineage or ryu. Yes...But, Omote and Ura, both exist in Akiyama Yoshin ryu lineage jujutsu. It's a matter of what form of timing is manifest in the orthodox kata. It's similar to the form of musubi applied. Mainline Daito ryu demonstration tends to apply musubi in the opposite manner of aikido, but both schools utilize both forms of musubi. Whats omote in one can be ura in another.
This is my point. The principle of irimi to me seams to be unique in to Daito Ryu in terms of Jujutsu. That is what I am trying to get from the other gentlemen. Daito Ryu is the source of the Irimi in Aikido. So I want to know if this fundamental pillar can be found else where. Such as Yoshin Ryu, as Toby is suggesting as a possible source of some of Daito Ryu. Based on logic, I have to say not, because as I stated before, it is not is accordance with the principle of yielding. If the source of Irimi cannot be attributed to another school, then I can do nothing but believe that it is the unique element of Daito Ryu, and this may then be however old the exponents of that art claim it to be. That is 900 years old. Regards,
Okay, Omote is not my term, it is how mainline Aikido describe the techniques were you enter across the front of the attacker. Hence there is no yielding. In some of his doka, O'Sensei describes this as the struggle of Aikido, to enter into the attack and receive 99%, then triumph. Hence in techniques, it is the physical manifestation of a fundamental principle of Aikido. Irimi. Not entering of to the side, but entering in front (omote). If Shin no Kurai is the last technique of the tehodoki, which is done as a shoto dori, by the definition we use for Robuse (Daito Ryu's ippondori) it is the same. Regards,
Graham, In Akiyama Yoshin ryu, shin no kurai is not part of the tehodoki. Shin n kurai is the first kata of the shoden idori set. Steve Delaney can clarify concerning TSR but I think uchite is the last kata in their tehodoki set. In TSYR the last tehodoki kata is called kami and is from Yoshin Koryu, not the Akiyama Yoshin ryu/TSR line. Irimi is prominently listed in our Shoden Mokuroku as one of the main principles of sabaki. Others include kaihei, awase, nagashi, zenshin, otoshi, chushin tadasu. You will find these principles in almost all schools of koryu jujutsu. Toby Threadgill / TSYR
I am not refering to tai sabaki. The maxim described in jujutsu in pull when pushed, push when pulled. This is very different to entering into an incoming strike. Regards,
May be the shoto dori technique is the second last technique from the kata. From memory, uchite is a hammer fist strike, blocked by leaning forwards, then throwing the attacker to the side and pining. Having jogged my memory, I can say that the shoto dori is not the last technique of the tehodoki. Regards,
Maybe I'm full of B.S. but I never heard of "entering into an incoming strike" as a description for irimi. I've heard the saying, "when pulled, enter... when pushed turn." I took this to mean to enter when the opponent is undecided, flat footed, or with weight back.
Graham, Be careful not to take things too literally or restrictively. Irimi is not stepping into an incoming strike unless your timing is bad. Irimi can be stepping into the preparation of an attack or stepping in to bait an attack. In the case of stepping into the preparation of an attack, as the attacker raises his arm to strike, the jujutsuka uses irimi to blend with the upward motion of the coming attack. That's pushing when the arm is pulled up....That's also an application of nagashi and awase. Daito ryu would say that's one form of aiki. Nagashi is flowing. (The same kanji as ryu). In the context of TSYR shoden principle it means employing a constantly flowing form of movement intended to facilitate awase (blending). Toby Threadgill / TSYR
The principle contained within the first technique of Daito Ryu (ippondori) and Aikido (Ikkyo Omote) is to enter into the strike, a shomen uchi.
So do you do this or not? The technique in the Kime no Kata is very similar to this blending, but then a kick is used and the arm is brought around, bringing the attacker to his front, as apposed to in ippon dori were the attacker is pushed back, and the defender moves forward. :topic: Just asking. We have a tai sabaki called nagashi, and was wondering if this had a lineage to Tenjin as well, assuming it is also in Tenjin. Regards,
I can see that. I actually had that explained differently to me, but it is the same technique. I was told to "accept the attack" (to wait until the last possible moment to move, but keep the intention forward as if ready to attack at any time). When there was an opening, the irimi came, if there was no opening... well, no irimi, do something else. At least that is how I interpreted the teachings.
Actually we do both but in a slightly different manner than Judo or Daito ryu. Our kata that are similar to ippondori is called ude dori and ude osae. Interestingly we also do a version where uchitachi and ****achi roles are reversed. Uchite attempts to relieve ****achi of his shoto. As uchitachi attempts this, ****achi draws his sword driving uchitachi back, completing the draw, pinning, and then dispatching him with a cut to the neck. I believe Takeuchi ryu has a kata very similar as well. Our version closer Kime no Kata is called sotowa, meaning outside blend. We enter similar to ude osae but yield at the first hint of resistence and turn outside pinning the attacker to the front. Again, almost all koryu jujutsu schools do variations on these waza. That's better addressed by Steve Delaney. Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Interesting conversation.. Just for the record, not like it's big news here, but the Takeuchi Ryu also uses the "irimi" principle for entering on an opponent carrying and intending to cut with a sword..The movement is similar to the basics of Ippon dori, although there is no need to lock the arm as you stab him before you need to lock... Toby, what was the name of the kata you referred to as being "similar" in Takeuchi Ryu?Just to get a mental picture it would help me out some.. Regards..
Irrimi need not always be to the side. Irrimi means enter we can do this using sen principles attacking directly at the opponents head drawing his hand up in defence then aligning our body IN a kuzushi. Example he strides forward with his right foot WE attack quicker breaking the rythm and on musubi unbalance him with a stronger spirit.We shall find ourself in a kuzushi with him unbalanced. Kuzushi are not mearly points of physical unbalance. Hesitation or carelessness are considered kuzushi and these we attack also. below tenchi nage across the front using irrimi to close the maai. regards koyo
隙 suki - chance; opportunity. I can see where you're coming from but I must confess to not associating kuzushi with hesitation or carelessness in terms of opportunity to attack.
Toby, That's an excellent interpretation of the entry in Daito-ryu's ippondori omote. It's hard to overemphasize the importance of proper timing in this technique. As you note, if you hesitate, you will be overwhelmed by the incoming strike. At best, it may turn into a strength contest, in which the attacker will have the advantage because of his forward momentum. Just for the record, Kondo's group calls this type of aiki in / yo (yin / yang). You're right again, this is one of the types of aiki that group recognizes in its teachings.
Hi koryu As you say kuzushi is the point of unbalance in the katchi kamae (physical posture) of the opponent. hesitation anger uncertainty etc. are considered "unbalance" in the kokoro kamae (fighting spirit) hence we tend to consider them in the same light as kuzushi. It would be more correct to view them as suki openings.Since we value principles over technique we tend to concentrate on attacking the "principles" of the opponent. Break his balance destroy his concentration etc.Then apply technique. The tendancy of some to demand "harmony" during training make it almost impossible to engage in this type of training wherein there IS a sense of danger between the proponents. regards koyo
It might do, but it's possible that a different name was given to it. I'd have to see it to confirm. What's the name of this technique in the Kime No Kata? Give me something to work with. Try thinking of irimi as intercepting an enemy's attack just before he's committed 100%. So just as his arm cocks to strike, you're all over him like a rash. The higher the skill level of kata, the more subtle this becomes, until you're basically reading facial expressions and behavioral patterns.
Initially irrimi and tenkan were used to describe what has now been called omote and ura. Omote meaning across the front and ura executed behind.Irrimi when used to close the maai or executed across the front is simply called irrimi. When used to enter up the side particularly against a shomen or sword cut the irrimi trangle is sharpened into what is called hito emi (making the body small). There are three sen timings in the use of irrimi. Sen when the attack is avoided and the opponent struck before he can continue his attack. Sen no sen when his attack is intercepted and he is cut down and sen sen no sen when we cut directly through his INTENTION to attack. regards koyo
