ZMA - your experience

Just wanted to get some feedback on your ZMA experience. I'm using the following:

I started in on the recommendation of a coach who suggested it will help to get a deeper sleep pattern going on. Not making you sleepy or putting you to sleep... but once you are there... a more solid, no-interruptions sleep.

To my surprise it has pretty much done that. I just follow the suggestion on the bottle and I find that when I'm down... I'm down. I can be a bit of an insomniac... so I've worked hard to change my sleep habits - for years I was a night owl and it played hell with my training and eating habits. Now I've got that under control and well happy at being a morning person. Like a new lease on life.

I need to dig a bit deeper into which bit of the ZMA makes the sleep deeper or why the stack does.

Has anyone else had this type experience using ZMA? What is your sleep pattern like and how many times a day/week do you train?

 

I train up to twice a day 5-6 days a week, and being a bit of an insomniac like you found I was becoming worn down so I gave ZMA a try. I've found since that my sleep is very deep, and the first few weeks I had alot of incredibly vivid dreams. The dreams have lessened somewhat but the sleep is still very deep and much better for my recovery than if I wasn't taking it

 

I tried it for a little bit, I found my sleep was very deep but unrest full. I woke up feeling tired and worn down. Could have just been a personal reaction to it seeing as Frod and benkei did not have similar reactions.

 

i think my brother, who is an avid gym junkie, tired this stuff said 2 things, as said above restless sleep and 2 when he did sleep had werid and scary dreams.

mighta just been him tho

 

Just thought of a good analogy, It felt like the kind of you sleep you get after a rough night of heavy drinking.

 

i take zma, i found without the b6 i sleep easier at night, (i buy NOW brand of three seperate vitamins at exact amounts of most zma product because its like 3 dollars a month instead of 5 or 10)

 

It's only going to have an efect if you are already deficient in any of the nutrients. Adding extra is not going to give a boost if you already get enough of all three. It would be a far better idea in my opinion to make sure you are getting enough of all the vital nutrients. Check out this website http://www.acu-cell.com for well rounded information on the subject. Also 'The Optimum Nutritian Bible' by Patrick Holford.

 

Agreed... but with training schedules and life being what they are... it's hard to keep on top of the ideal nutrition all the time. Which is exactly why I got a positive result from supplementing with ZMA. I don't think anyone's arguing it's the wonder supplement... however I think many people are deficient in B6, magnesium and potassium. I suspect those who train hard are probably more at risk than the general population as well.

 

ZMA helps me sleep at night regardless of the time of day I take it. I tend to have some whey before bed so I try to have it with a meal relatively low in calcium.

 

Yeah, I know. My point, though, was that it's a good idea to supplement more than just ZMA. If it has a positive effect then you might want to consider what other positive effects you could get from other nutrients. The thing is, though, they have to be in balance, and that's not easy.

 

IIRC ZMA was formulated by grabbing the two minerals we're most likely to be deficient in, Magnesium and Zinc, and B6 to increase absorption. Taking a generic multivitamin often means that minerals compete with each other and some don't get absorbed, zinc and calcium or magnesium and potassium are prime examples. This is why ZMA usually says not to take milk or dairy with it or to take it on an empty stomach, if you take a multivitamin take it in the morning and ZMA in the evening.

I think it's value for getting good sleep is way better than whatever it offers for strength/recovery/hormone levels etc. I'd rather take this than a multivitamin and get the rest from diet tbh, especially since the vast majority of multivitamin products have cheap forms of vitamins with low bioavailability and of just one form. Since a lot of it just goes straight through you I don't need to spell out where most of your money is going.

I think it's attributed to the magnesium, a decent magnesium ascorbate supplement should have a similar effect.

I like ZMA, good solid sleep and vivid dreams, definitely 'enhanced' my dreams along with tribulus.

 

No. Those are the nutrients your nads require to make sufficient quantities of nad juice. Most people are deficient in most nutrients with the exeption of sodium and copper, and calcium if you consume dairy. Your post reads like it comes straight of the label.

Yes a generic multi pobabally wont do you much good but one has to take into consideration quantity, absorbability and balance. Too much zinc can adversly affect iron, calcium, selenium, nickel, phosphorus, copper, as well as Vitamins A, B1, C. This will have knock on effect in other areas of your health.

I'm not suggesting no one should take ZMA. Just that the proper balance of nutrients is essencial for overall health. Products like ZMA feed into the 'pill for an ill' culture that dominates western society.

 

Most multi-vitamins would be squarely in the same boat. In fact they probably lead the pack in the magic pill mentality.

I do take a multi vitamin, have a pretty solid diet and still never managed to get the same quality of sleep like I did after experimenting with a round of ZMA to be honest. Even though the multi-vit had not too dissimilar quantities of mag/zinc/B6... Could be just me.... but I found the results noticeable enough to suggest them to other people.

I found the depth of sleep as deep as certain types of anti-anxiety drugs. Obviously though the ZMA isn't habit forming (a massive risk with anti-anxieties)... doesn't put you to sleep (it just has a positive effect once you get there)... and isn't an excuse for having a bad diet or a bandaid on poor overall nutrition.

The ZMA also allows REM sleep and a dream cycle which many anti-anxiety drugs and sleeping pills don't FWIW.

 

Your response doesn't make sense. I specifically said what the goals were when Victor Conte produced ZMA, not what a generic case for the general public is. There's a bit more to it than just increasing ejaculate but if that's all you're using it for then I'm happy it's working. You judge everyone with the same yardstick, I'm pretty sure my diet is way better than 'most people' so you're advice on what I'm likely to be deficient in is too vague. The thread isn't about what everyone should take, it's about experiences of this supplement. I don't recall seeing many people outside of healthy living even being aware of ZMA so chances are someone taking this doesn't fall into the average person category anyway.

If you're taking a multivitamin then you're not accounting for any of that, you're taking a pill to cover your bases. Vitamins A,D,E and K for example won't get absorbed without a fat source being fat soluble in nature where it's usually found in fat. This is exactly why I said multivitamins are generally useless, it's a sledgehammer approach to micronutrients and it fails more often than it succeeds. Most people won't tell any difference between taking a multivitamin or not. I distinctly mentioned that if you're taking both not to take them at the same time, but that was in the bit of my post you cut out of your quote so you may not have read it.

But without measuring your nutrient intake and monitoring yourself for nutrient levels any talk of nutrient balance is just guesswork. On one hand you're saying that ZMA is a 'pill for an ill' culture product, then you talk about maintaining a balance by taking a multivitamin. Multivitamins are the biggest culprit for 'pill for an ill'. People take them instead of eating enough fruit and veg, or 'just in case' they're not covering all the bases. It's taken as a basic supplement because it's s often taken by everybody. It's not exact science, it's not about balance and they don't even work that well. ZMA on the other hand produces a definite effect on sleep and rest, something entirely absent from a generic multivitamin.

Also I have no idea why you think this is an issue with western society only, I've seen way more dependence on vitamins in traditional Asian families than I have in British families.

 

Just because you don't understand something, that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. I don't use ZMA and when I said nad juice I meant testosterone. Zinc, magnesium, vitamin A and B6 are required by your gonads(that is actually the apropriate scientific name for both testes and ovaries) for them to function properly and produce sex hormones.

You said that these were the most commonly deficient nutrients. I disagreed. Seems to make sense to me.

I judge no one, by any yard stick. I don't know exactly what you regard as "way better than" but due to soil depletion over years of intensive farming levels of trace elements, such as zinc and chromium, in fruit and vegetables are depleted.

Firstly, I'm not advocating multivitamins; second, I know about absorption etc. Thats why I take my beta carotene, vitamin E and coQ with a hefty spoonfull of coconut oil half way through my oats in the morning. I also take my omegas then too though I don't think it makes much difference when they are taken.

There are some general rules that can be followed. I can't be bothered going into all that here - the info is out there if you want to find it. My original point was that IF you are going to supplement you need to know why. Not just throw pills down your throat. ZMA covers one aspect of nutrition. My point was that its scope is too narrow.

I was NOT advocating multivitamins.
I was NOT advocating supplementation instead of a good diet.
If ZMA does have such positive effects then good. My point was that one may like to consider other aspects of their health too. Or one may not. It's a personal thing.

Did I say "only"? I said that it predominates IN western society. I did not say anything of other societies. And what exactly do you mean by "dependence"?

In my original post I was only pointing out that nutrition is complex and if one is inclined to take ZMA one should consider why. If one gets a positive effect from ZMA then one should consider that this is an indication that the are not adequately nourished, no matter how healthily one considers ones diet and lifestyle to be.

By the way I also do not consider RDA to be optimum. We generally need much more on most nutrients than RDA levels. Again with the word generally. YES! I am generalising. One has to.

 

Hmm... I don't think taking ZMA was just throwing pills down my throat. It was directly related to me not being able to get a good nights sleep. So this among other options was one I explored based on what I'd read (about ZMA and issues with sleep on their own) and experiences from other fighters/trainers that keep the same lifestyle and training schedule that I do. As it turned out it had a positive effect. Not sure why you're so dismissive of that.

You also make the assumption that I was looking for some sort of magic pill because I was either too ignorant or too lazy to do the homework about nutrition. Not the case actually... more a case of I knew there were issues with diet and nutrition... but those aren't going to be magically solved in short order. But the need for a solid nights sleep was imperative so that's where ZMA came in.

You seem to keep on about people somehow wanting a magic pill and not wanted to learn anything about diet or nutrition. A pretty unfair assumption.

 

Thanks for the condescending attitude, understanding nutrition is not an issue for me. My post was on why ZMA was produced initially, not my own opinion on what the most commonly deficient nutrients are. That was the confusion and why I said your post made no sense. It made sense to you because you didn't see this.

You're assuming ZMA is only taken for a deficiency in these so bad it has affected sex hormone production. This is a misunderstanding in itself. Here's a little bit of science for you, ZMA has been shown in several studies to have no significant increase in testosterone against a control group. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from but it certainly does sound like it comes 'straight from the label'.

You judge everyone as soon as you use terms like 'most people' or 'western society'.

Fine, why do we need to supplement multivitamins and minerals then? Statistically the US and the UK are eating more fruit and veg than ever before. The quality may be lower than it used to be but not as much as many organic advocates will quote in their propaganda. There's some value to organic foods but non-organic fruit and veg is nowhere near worthless.

This is also an issue about where food is sourced. It's not hard to find locally sourced, highly nutritious food without much effort.

Do you have specific deficiencies in these? Obviously you're not taking them just for the benefits they provide or you would be part of that 'pill for an ill' culture.

No, there aren't rules. There's advice from well meaning nutritionists or individuals in other health based professions but these are guidelines based on opinion and a long way from 'rules'. Nobody here has suggested just throwing pills down their throat, if anything the one person here actually listing a stack of daily supplements is yourself.

Surely a supplement that only covers one aspect of nutrition is exactly why you should supplement with one thing. If you're looking for deeper sleep then ZMA is a great choice. Why you think the scope (of what?) is too narrow (compared to what?) I'm not sure.

You mean like spiritual health as listed in that acu-cell site you linked to? The one run by an acupuncturist with no nutritional training? Even the acu-cell test is listed by Quackwatch.

My apologies, I did say only and I shouldn't have. My point still holds though, why make a discrimination that western societies have this 'pill for an ill' culture specifically and on what evidence?

I agree with you that people shouldn't follow a general plan for supplementation but it is far too complex a subject to accurately determine minor deficiencies or requirements. You're still maintaining that ZMA is taken for inadequate nutrition yet there is rarely an ideal figure for any nutrient and the people here are taking it for improved sleep which will mean the nutrients are pushed up to the higher end of the healthy range for a specific reason. This has nothing to do with RDA and nothing to do with nutrients from diet. You could get the nutrients from your diet but I'm not a fan of eating 1000 Kcal of nuts in the evening to make up that 450mg of magnesium to help me sleep better every day.

 

I've taken both and the ZMA single pill seemed to work better, however I can't say how much of this was because I knew I was taking the official SNAC formulation and if there was an additional psychological effect. These days if I want a good sleep I'll take Magnesium Ascorbate on its own which works just as well for me. If it's jet lag or my sleep cycle is out of whack for whatever reason I like melatonin.