I don't disagree with that. However I find all these vegetarian "facts" quite rediculous. What I find just as rediculous is when someone gets offended and starts spewing out these "facts" like they were chisled in stone by God. Animal cruelty is a matter of opinion. There were some pictures posted of some pretty bad farms, well these things happen. Most farms aren't that friggin bad. I know, I'm from Wisconsin . There are terrible sweatshops all over the world but people still buy Nike.
Ok but you neglected to put the reason why. Since most eat meat it is natural that pestcide residues in the diet come from meat. But what you fail to consider is that livestock are fed the very same grains, fruits, vegetables, and dairy products that carry the same residues because of widespread use of pesticides on large industrial farms. The irony here is that when the metabolism of the animal is taken into account, eating the meat is actually much safer than eating the pesticide saturated vegetables, fruits and grain they are fed on. Actually in my limited experience here where live, I have yet to meet a farmer who does not eat any kind of meat.
In my mind, convincing me to give up vegetarianism would be like convincing someone to give up healthy exercise...or convincing someone to begin beating their pet dog. There are a lot of benefits for vegetarian eating. Depending on how you look at it, these benefits are Health, Moral reasons, and economic reasons. What are the benefits to meat eating? So far the only comments I've read on here are: "I like meat." "Meat is tasty." "I'm not a bad person for eating meat." "I like meat." "I'm entitled to eat meat." "I care nothing for the suffering of farm animals." Where are the arguments that are supposed to convince me that a meat eating diet is a healthier/humane/economical means to support myself OVER a disciplined vegetarian diet? I haven't heard any...thus, I really have no reason to change my mind. -If you can convince me that farm animals feel no pain, aren't intelligent/social, and don't suffer...I WILL LISTEN! -If you can pose a valid argument that shows the health benefits of meat eating OVER a disciplined vegetarian diet...I WILL LISTEN! -If you can show me how much cheaper QUALITY meat products are than quality vegetables/fruits/beans/etc...I WILL LISTEN! The reason I seem so aggressive and adamant on this topic is simple: I felt the same damn way many of you do UNTIL someone forced me to re-evaluate my thinking. I even made the transition from "Steak and Potatoes" to "Tofu and Potatoes" gradually because I recognized how ingrained and comfortable I was with eating meat. I'm what you'd call a "Progressive" vegetarian. Every male in my family line has died from heart disease. My grandmother has had triple bypass three times, my mother has arrythmia (even though she's a marathon runner), and my uncle had open heart surgery at age 28. I'm begging for a gigantic heart explosion between the ages of 18 and 100. Considering I'm old enough to be a veteran and a college grad...I'm on borrowed time I had the same...if not MORE...arguments against vegetarianism as you guys do...and each of these arguments were proven to be groundless and false. "I'm underweight with a screwed up metabolism. How will I maintain my calories?" -I still enjoy fried foods, bean burritos, chips and salsa, guacamole, and all sorts of calorie dense foods. I also keep a tub of assorted nuts at my job. "I'm an athlete. Where will I get my protein?" -I get more protein now than I did as a meat eater. Being a vegetarian also makes you painfully aware of your eating habits. I actually notice when I haven't eaten a balanced day's worth of food...whereas before, I ate when hungry and bought where ever was convenient. "I'm broke. How can I afford meat replacements?" -Boca and other "fake meats" can be pricy...so I rely on beans and nuts when I can't budget in Boca. Soy also runs about a dollar for an entire brick...and an entire brick of tofu makes a GIANT serving. I usually make a brick of tofu last two meals. "Cows, pigs, and chickens are mindless, unfeeling containers of tasty meat. They don't feel pain or suffer, so why would I care about eating them?" -This was the most poignant and lasting "change" that cemented my lifestyle. How could I claim to be an "Animal Lover" when I couldn't control what I put in my face? After reading books on farm animals and watching undercover footage...how could I justify murdering (or contributing to the murder of) animals that really aren't so different from my beloved pets JUST for a particular taste? A TASTE! At that point I realized that a failure to be disciplined in my eating habits simply showed a weakness in my own character. I knew better...so if I reverted, I'd be a ginormous hypocrit. So I understand where people are coming from. I also understand why people are defensive. More importantly, I understand that unless someone poses difficult and frustrating questions...YOU WON'T SEEK THE ANSWERS ON YOUR OWN! Besides...I'm also forcing myself to research the benefits of vegetarian eating, thereby reinforcing my own beliefs. Woot! "Tell 'em what fun facts are next, Bob!" Integ9: I really, truly wish that I could personally conduct undercover investigations...go to med school and perform my own research...and have a chat with Mr. Greenspan about economics to convince you 100% without a doubt that every fact I post is, indeed, a fact. I can't. Instead, I'll have to rely on the research of others.
I was hoping my post wouldn't turn out this way, but i guess it was inevitable. Anyway, i was hoping someone would be able to help me out with RDI/nutrition stuff. TV ads here say to eat 5 veg and 2 fruit a day which is easy to remember. But i don't know how much of something i should be eating to get protein and iron. Do i have to take my weight/height/age into account? I'm not sure if i'm eating the right amount but i'm not eating so little that i'd get sick. I eat 2 eggs a day and lots of wholemeal bread, tofu and nuts, beans and seed things. Does anyone know a good site that can figure this all out for you? Thanks.
Interesting thread. I am a carnivore myself, although I have considered becoming vegan in depth. I try to follow the Buddhist path of not harming other life, but I can find no rational reason to place the harm caused by eating meat above the harm caused by eating vegetables. If you think it is obvious that eating meat is more harmful than eating vegetables then I would humbly suggest you consider the matter in more depth. The large-scale production of vegetables is destroying the environment. Croppers use pesticides and GM products to ensure the survivability of their crop at the expense of all other life in the given habitat. So on the one hand, it's bad to slaughter and eat a cow, but on the other it's good to destroy the environment of many species (both flora and fauna) setting off a chain reaction of environmental effects which are not properly understood. I cannot personally accept such a flawed viewpoint. I'm not saying people shouldn't be vegans or vegetarians, just that they should stop with the 'holier than thou' attitude and remember that morals are entirely subjective, there are no 'religious morals' and 'universal morals', merely personal opinion. Enjoy your food, whatever it may be
Protein should be 1 gram per pound of body weight (or pound and a half...some studies differ; I'll let the H&F geeks debate that one). You'll need to get a very good multivitamin to make up for the deficiencies in Iron, Zinc, and B12; GNC makes a good Vegetarian multivitamin. There are a number of good books out there on Vegetarianism. This one is my favorite: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...f=pd_bbs_1/104-8448360-1149515?_encoding=UTF8 The New Becoming Vegetarian: The Essential Guide To A Healthy Vegetarian Diet (Paperback) by Vesanto Melina and Brenda Davis. It covers all the bases including what you're lacking and what you'll need to do to make up for it. It also includes a section specifically designed for Vegetarian athletes, and it covers all forms of vegetarianism from "ok, I eat fish but not meat" to "I'm a total Vegan".
Think about it like this: Topsoil depletion is destroying our environment because we're growing too many vegetables. Over 75% (closer to 80%, but I can't find a source right now) of the vegetables grown are used to feed livestock to provide for the Meat Industry. In other words, by eating strictly vegetarian, you AREN'T contributing to Topsoil depletion. You are actually only eating the 20% or so that isn't used to feed livestock. Have you ever heard the Sexually Transmitted Disease thought that stated something along the lines of, "When you have sex with someone, you are having sex with EVERY other person your partner has had sex with" ? Same thing with meat. When you eat meat, you are eating everything that contributed to that cow's growth as a slaughter animal. Meat Eater: Human -> Cow -> Vegetables Vegetarian: Human -> Vegetables Therefore, you can't think that by eating meat, you're saving the environment. If you were able to stop someone from beating their wife or their kids by simply telling them about the ramifications of their actions...would you? If you knew someone was harming their body by doing drugs and that you could possibly change their mind and save their health...would you? If you knew someone was blowing lots of money on gambling even though they had other bills to pay and that you could try and convince them to stop...would you? "All that evil needs to win is for the good to do nothing." If you read my posts in their entirety, then you'd understand what I'm doing.
No. You are still buying vegetables that are produced by profiteering capitalists with no thought for the environmental ramifications of their actions (unless you eat organic produce only). Just because 80% of veg. is eaten by livestock does not mean that veg. for human consumption does not contribute to environmental damage. I'm not sure why you think it does. The veg. for human consumption has to meet far more rigorous quality standards and therefore requires more pesticides and intensive farming than veg. intended simply as animal fodder. I never said that. All I said is that vegetable production destroys life just like animal production. If you eat either you are contributing to the destruction of the environment (again, unless you eat organic). Therefore the vegetarian argument that eating meat is inhumane due to the destruction of life also applies to eating vegetables, unless those vegetables were grown without the use of pesticides or other methods that kill wildlife. What difference is there in a cow dying to put meat on your table, or a whole heap of birds, small mammals and insects who have been displaced from their habitat, poisioned or killed in order to put bread on your table. I disagree that meat eating is evil though, so no amount of reading your posts is going to make your point any more rational (and the implication that I didn't read your posts in their entirety is not true). If you have any argument against eating meat based on logic rather than on morality I'd like to hear it.
Click here and get your free vegetarian starter kit! http://www.goveg.com/order.asp Here are some tips that helped me make the transition: -List the non-meat foods that you absolutely love. You'll be surprised at how many different types of "vegetarian" dishes you loved before you went vegetarian. I.E. I love bean burritos, chips and salsa, guacamole, bananas, hawaiin bread, crumpets, etc... -Now list the meat products that you particularly like and might have a hard time giving up. I.E. I used to love chicken wings, fried chicken...heck, I love ANYTHING fried! -Look at these favored meat dishes, and try to find ways to get the same experience without the meat. I.E. I bought a high quality Buffalo Wing sauce, shallow fried some pre-frozen tofu (freezing tofu gives it a chicken nugget like texture) in a triple layered batter, then coated the tofu in the sauce. I kid you not...it tastes like buffalo chicken nuggets. -Keep various nuts and snacks with you wherever you go. I.E. Tubs of nuts (CHEAP!), trail mix, dried fruits, carrot sticks, celery sticks, potato chips (Yup, going vegetarian doesn't have to mean becoming a health nut), etc... -Get rid of all meat products in your house. If you don't live on your own, this is probably impossible...but having those tempting hot dogs available makes the change much more difficult. -Drink lots and lots of milk. If you can't or won't drink milk, get soy milk/almond milk/rice milk. -Get a GOOD multi-vitamin, and be disciplined enough to take it every day. Unlike meat eaters, you will notice certain deficiencies when you skimp on vitamins if you aren't careful. Make sure you're getting 100% Iron and all your B vitamins. -If you aren't getting enough Iron, buy an Iron supplement. If you have to do this...then you'll need to buy a fiber supplement too, as you'll probably become constipated. Don't worry, though, as most people should be taking a fiber supplement anyway. Do a google search for vegetarian recipes, forums, and other support groups to help you make the change. The first week or so will suck...but after that, you won't miss meat at all. Good luck!
You have an excellent point! I'm fortunate enough to be financially stable and able to afford organic products, but you do bring up a very solid fact about organic products that others might not have known about. Thanks! I understand if you don't dig the Morality aspect...but there is still the Health and Economic value in eating vegetarian. Most of my old posts in this thread contained a quoted "Fun Facts" section where you can read some of the health and economic reasons to eat vegetarian. I'll post some more anyway, since you asked. These are simply the health benefits. If you'd like the economic benefits, I can try and scrounge up some more quotes.
Unless of course you take the simple step of eating/growing organic... Either way, pulling a carrot is not the same as putting a bolt through the head of an animal capable of feeling pain, suffering and distress. Mitch
For people's edification, here's a list of famous vegetarian athletes... Ridgely Abele Winner of eight national championships in karate Natascha Badman 1998 Hawai'i Ironlady Surya Bonaly French figure skating champion (3 or 4 time Olympian, multiple silver medals at worlds) Johnathan Boyer Cyclist Peter Brock race car driver Amby Burfoot World Class Marathon Runner Bob Burnquist Pro Skateboarder Peter Burwash Davis Cup winner and professional tennis star Andreas Cahling Swedish champion bodybuilder, Olympic gold medallist in the ski jump Chris Campbell Olympic wrestling champion Nicky Cole First woman to walk to the North Pole Robbie Earle Football (soccer) Chris Evert Tennis Bill Goldberg Pro Wrestling Ruth Heidrich Six-time Ironwoman, USA track and field Master's champion Keith Holmes World-champion middleweight boxer Desmond Howard Professional football star, Heisman trophy winner Peter Hussing European super heavy-weight boxing champion Jim Kaat Pitcher, Chicago White Sox Billie Jean King Tennis Donnie LaLonde Boxing Debbie Lawrence World record holder, women's 5K racewalk Bruce Lee JKD Carl Lewis Olympic gold medalist in track and field Sixto Linares World record holder, 24-hour triathlon Cheryl Marek and Estelle Gray World record holders, cross-country tandem cycling Ingra Manecki World champion discus thrower Bill Manetti Power-lifting champion Ben Matthews U.S. Master's marathon champion Dan Millman World champion gymnast Martina Navratilova Champion tennis player Paavo Nurmi Long-distance runner, winner of nine Olympic medals and 20 world records Anthony Peeler NBA: Grizzlies Bill Pearl Four-time Mr. Universe Bill Pickering World record-holding swimmer Stan Price World weightlifting record holder, bench press Murray Rose Swimmer, winner of many Olympic gold medals and world records Dave Scott Six-time winner of the Ironman triathlon Art Still Buffalo Bills and Kansas City Chiefs MVP defensive end, Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Fame Rosalyn Sumners Figure Skating (1983 World Champion, 1984 Silver Medalist) Emmil Walton UK Gladiators (TV) Jane Wetzel U.S. National marathon champion
I can't imagine being a vegetarian/vegan. I can eat salad and such, but then I still need something that I consider food. And it seems so much easier to me to simply feast on the delicious flesh of the dead than to have to worry about supplements, substitutes and which vitamins I am developing a deadly defficiency in. Considering how many athletes live with a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle, I must admit that it is something that can be pulled off to good effect. But, that said, I know a total of three vegans, and each one is severely malnourished and weak, which I only say to indicate that it can be done to terrible effect as well.
I can easily imagine being vegetarian, there's not tons of meat in it as it is, discounting fish. Quorn is a great source of lean protein, if I hadn't had raw quorn a few years ago I'd probably buy more.
Gangrel Child, you rock. This is the attitude of a lot of people I know. Darn near everyone I know admits that they SHOULD be vegetarian (for a number of reasons, not just moral), but that the transition is simply too difficult. That is extremely understandable, as some medical doctors have called meat eating an "Addiction" on par with cigarette smoking. Going cold turkey is very difficult and daunting...especially since our fastfood heavy environment is rarely vegetarian compatible. This means a lot more work typically has to go into a vegetarian diet until you get the hang of it. If you're REALLY lucky, you'll have a falafel place nearby. I <3 falafel.
Yes, I do, sexy Anyway... I thought it would be a good idea for Cheshire Cat and anyone else interested if they could see a list of names of well-known athletes who are vegetarian and compete at the highest eschelons of their spots. It's very inspiring. There were actually more names I found, but these were easily the most recognizable (or relevant... how many runners do we need on the list?) EDIT: I went cold turkey. Wasn't really a problem for me. Just had to get used to beans as a source of protein, if you know what I mean, lol.
Just for the record, I don't think I should be vegetarian. I also know from previous experience I can stick to any diet I want through sheer will power (V diet). Meat is a treat for me, and not one I would consider leaving out of my diet, I like to leave my options open. For anyone who still believes you would have problems getting enough protein, this is a pic of an old school vegan bodybuilder called Bill Pearl, already mentioned by GC.
You seem to be missing my point Mitch. Look beyond the pulling of the carrot... Sartori, Vegetarians would do much better (IMHO) to talk about the benefits of their diet rather than list statistics, quotes and examples of fit people who share their diet. I mean real scientific explanation of why and how vegetarianism will help you 'leave those sluggish meat-eaters in the dust' or 'live six to ten years longer'. You may well live six to ten years longer than a beer guzzling, macdonalds eating, lounge potato, but do you really think a healthy person who eats meat suffers any ill effects?
I'll tackle the part about famous people since I composed and posted the list... I think there is this idea about vegetarians being these political lefties who really are just pasty little moralists. We hear so much about "you have to eat this amount of protein to gain weight", "you need 'x' amount of this vitamin to be healthy", and "you need to consume so many calories to be athletic and maintain a competitive edge". It's important to show people that you can be a vegetarian and be a competitive athlete. It's especially important in a forum such as this where most of us exercise regularly and many compete.
