Vegetarian vs. Vegan vs. Carnivore

Hi MuayThaiGuy,

The potential dangers arise from the meat rotting in the colon and not afaik vegetarian matter rotting in the colon. The link is between meat and colon cancer. I do not feel there is or was a need to mention plant matter and truly believe the statement is accurate.

Please read my previous post for explanation.

No.

No. Not builds up. The colon isn't like a long straight pipe that fibre pushes everything out in one go. However, are you aware that an autopsy revealed that John Wayne colon's had approx 65 pounds of dried feacal matter? He died of colon cancer.

Do you accept that there is a potential link between red meat and colon cancer?

 

im not completly a vegitarian i like chicken, but most other meats i dont eat just because they make me feel sick.
i used to eat all types of meat til two/three years ago.
but i love my veggies.

 

John Wayne died of Colon Cancer because he shot a couple of movies on or near Nuclear Test sites in Nevada, Arizona and Utah (Genghis Khan is one of them) only a few years after the devices were exploded and not because he ate Red Meat.

If you want an answer regarding Colon Cancer and Red meat-ask an Eskimo, they eats loads of Red meat and don't have any Cancer rates in the proportion of their population that sticks to their traditional diet, of Meat, Fish, oil and the occassional Kelp/ seaweed/ berry/ root...

They do, BTW, have higher cancer rates in the proportion of their population that has lost touch with their traditional culture and way of eating and now consumes Sugar, excessive Alcohol, simple Carbs and anything else that will send your Tri-Glycerides through the roof...

 

quote:
Originally posted by MuayThaiGuy
Also, I still want to know where you get the meat in your digestive tract for 3 months thing from.



Please read my previous post for explanation.


Sorry, I must have missed it. I reread your previous posts a few times and still cannot find your explanation.

For the record, I am an omnivore. I eat both meat and veggies and enjoy both. I was a vegetarian for about 4 years and taking supplements and in the process damaged my neuromuscular system. It just didn't suit my body. I now eat meat. Red and white. And love it!

 

Ah yes, the infamous curse of "The Conqueror." Of the 220 people that worked on the movie 91 of them had developed cancer by 1980. I would have to guess that the 65 lbs of fecal matter found was due to backup from either blockage by the tumor or else a malfunctioning colon due to the fact that everything down there was going haywire.

See http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_016.html for more info, it's a pretty interesting story.

I'll reply a bit more later, I have to get ready for a Capoeira class.

 

Where the hell do Eskimos get red meat from? Polar bears and foxes? McDonalds?

You don't get colon cancer from nuclear test sites. That's such a lame excuse invented just because it's an embarrassing cancer to die of. It kills a lot of men, mainly because they're too manly to get it seen to.

If blood's coming out your ass, go to the hospital today or perhaps die very soon.

Rgds (and enjoy your meal ),
David

Meat rotting in your colon is pretty gross and true.

 

Eskimo red meat= caribou. The idea of anything rotting in your colon is gross, but true? I have my doubts. Besides, no one knows with any certainty what causes cancer. I mean, if everything that is claimed to cause cancer did, we would all have it from something.. after all, don't doctors come up with something initially thought of as harmless, as cancer causing every few months?

(Sorry, just the cynic iin me coming out to play)

 

/me confesses not sure what a caribou is... I think it is a nocturnal moose-like flying thing which lives in burrows? I imagine it's very tasty once you get rid of the claws and beak.

Cynicism causes cancer. Take a chill-pill NOW!

Rgds,
David

 

Eskimos eat=
Reindeer (Caribou),
Seals,
Whale Meat
Anything else with flesh on its bones.

The Masai Mara, Samburu (Kenya) ate nothing but
Meat, Blood and Milk until very recently.

Within the last twenty five years some of their number have adopted a more liberal diet away from their Traditional One, incorporating such fancies as White Bread and Sugary Food into their daily regime.

They have seen disease increase steadily within their communities accordingly.

The issue for me, is not about Meat vs Vegetables, of which I eat large amounts of both.

It is about eating 'relatively' Natural food, that is as unprocessed as possible, whatever that food is.

 

Our digestive tracts were originally designed for a herbivorous diet. But we have developed to an omnivorous one.

As a result, some of us don't properly process meat, others of us do.

And isn't fibre an important part of cleaning out our colons.

Me personally, I love my meat

 

That statement is actually the other way around. Ie Primates eat what they can get, animal or vegetable. Omnivorous Evolutionary beginnings.

Some folk have developed into potentially Herbivorous creatures.

Blood Types anyone? Do we wanna go there?

 

This is an abstract from:

Red meat and colon cancer: dietary haem, but not fat, has cytotoxic and hyperproliferative effects on rat colonic epithelium

http://carcin.oupjournals.org/cgi/c...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&journalcode=carcin

High intake of red meat is associated with an increased risk of colon cancer. It has been suggested that fat from red meat is responsible, because high fat intake increases the concentration of cytotoxic lipids in the colon. Experimental studies have not unequivocally supported such a role for fat, however. Recently, we showed that dietary haem, which is abundant in red meat, increased colonic cytotoxicity and epithelial proliferation. In this study, we wanted to clarify whether dietary fat affects colon cancer risk by itself or by modulating the detrimental effects of haem on the colonic epithelium. Rats were fed control or haem-supplemented diets with 10%, 25% or 40% of the energy derived from fat for 14 days. Faeces were collected for biochemical analyses. Colonic cytotoxicity was determined from the degree of lysis of erythrocytes by faecal water. Colonic epithelial proliferation was measured in vivo using [3H]thymidine incorporation. Increasing the fat content of the control diets stimulated faecal disposal of both fatty acids and bile acids. It also increased the concentration of fatty acids, but not that of bile acids, in faecal water in control rats. The cytolytic activity of faecal water and colonic epithelial proliferation were unaffected. Dietary haem increased faecal cation content and cytolytic activity of faecal water at all fat levels, suggesting that the colonic mucosa was exposed to high amounts of luminal irritants. This effect was smaller in rats on the low-fat diet. Dietary haem also increased colonic epithelial proliferation at all fat levels. The haem-induced effects were independent of fatty acids or bile acids in the faecal water. In western societies, 30–40% of ingested energy is supplied by dietary fat, so our results suggest that the association between consumption of red meat and risk of colon cancer is mainly due to its haem content, and is largely independent of dietary fat content.

 

A Human Being is not a Rat.

Unless you have actual Real scientific Proof based on Legitimate, thorough unbiased and long-term studies using Human Beings, then I don't want to know about the effects on rats, which are very biologically different creatures.

Human Results please.

 

LOL!

Genetically both are very similar and experiments show that they behave the same in almost every single way - including social! Note that many clinical trials are performed with rats. However, I don't want to enter a debate with you on this.

It doesn't really matter whether you accept this as Real Scientific Proof. Carry on eating red meat. But, I find it interesting that there is an associated risk between red meat and colon cancer. Thus far, this is proven conclusively in rats. And the next step is to confirm that this is also the case with humans. I'm wondering how many persons will come forward for the clinical trails - colon cancer anyone?

 

A Brief Primer on Cancer
To explain the root causes of cancer, we must go waaaaaaay back in time to some of the earliest life on Earth. Back then, all there were were single celled organisms. These little guys had it simple, all they did was eat, excrete, and multiply, which they did ad infinitem.

Fast forward a bit in time and suddenly you see multicellular life. There are obvious benefits to cells getting together for their mutual survival and forming multicellular organisms, but there are also problems. These problems are mainly related to the fact that single celled organisms are inherently very selfish. Left to their own devices they will multiply indiscriminately, eventually using up all resources and killing them all. Also, single celled organisms are essentially immortal, they don't age like we do. To overcome these tendancies, organisms had to evolve strict controls. One of these controls is the ability to tightly limit when cells multiply. Another is programmed cell death, or apoptosis. Controlling when cells die is actually extremely important.

This all leads up to cancer. Essentially, cancer can be seen as cells that revert to a more primative state, back when they were single celled organisms. A tumor is the result of a single cell that has gone through a number of genetic mutations (minimum found so far is four) which have allowed it to skirt the body's normal growth controls. These controls include the aformentioned regulation of the cell's ability to divide, plus further controls that program the cell to die if the initial controls are violated. The cells in the tumor will multiply until they kill the organism, and are essentially immortal unless killed through therapy.

So the molecular basis of cancer is broken genes. It's a cascade of at least four failures in the right genes which eventually lead to the death of the organism. It doesn't matter how these failures are caused, it just matters that the right series of genes are broken.

So just what can break a gene? The most sure way is radiation, including UV rays from the sun. There are several specific types of damage to DNA that radiation causes that I won't get into, but it's useful to think of it as breaking the DNA. The second thing that can cause these errors are chemicals. Once again there are a number of specific ways that chemicals can break DNA that aren't important here. Finally there's the newest discovery that virusus can cause cancer, specifically HPV which can cause cervical cancer. These viruses bascially copy their genetic code into the host's DNA randomly. If the host is unlucky these copies will end up breaking genes, and if they're very unlucky these copies will brerak the genes that stop the cell from turning cancerous.

I also feel that I should address David's objection that it wasn't radioactive dust that caused The Duke's colon cancer. I'm sorry David, but you're very likely totally wrong on this. Think about it. The crew of this movie spend 13 weeks in a desert full of radioactive dust. Wayne spent more time than anyone else out there riding horses and getting the dust everywhere. Including, of course, swallowing a large amount of it. This dust would have traveled through his entire digestive system, causing damage to his DNA the entire way through. The numbers showed that the risk of cancer tripled for every single person who worked on the movie. The lead character, spending more time than anyone else out there, probably had an even more increased risk. We can never say for sure exactly when the genetic damage that led up to cancer occurred since it happens over years and doesn't show any symptoms until the cancer finally kicks in, but any doctor would say that swallowing radioactive dust would be a huge contributor to an eventual cancer of the digestive system.

 

zun - Well, I would like to debate that with you.

Only in the sense that we are similar to a surprising degree with all life. Rat studies are good to give us general ideas about directions to pursue further, but they can also be misleading if you're not careful because of our many less obvious differences. Much better would be primate studies, especially with chimpanzees because they truely are very close to us genetically.

Ahhh, the precepts that lead many a sociologist astray in the 70's. Socially, rodents and primates are extremely different, and it's totally impossible to extrapolate social behavior of primates from rodents. There were a famous series of experiments done in the 70's that purported to show the causes of urban violence. What they did is put a bunch of rats together in a very small enclosure. The rats very quickly became hostile, and started killing and eating each other. The sociologist who did them extapolated this behavior to humans and it got much press. This was all fine and dandy, until other people tried the same experiment with primates. They found that when kept in a small space together, primates actually had the opposite reaction. Instead of becoming more hostile, they actually became more submissive and had no problem coexisting in very cramped quarters.

Do you see the danger inherent in ignoring the differences between rats and humans?

Edited because I screwed up the quote tags.

 

Err, there wasn't an explanation for this in your previous post that I could see. Please elaborate.

Please elaborate here also. What's different about this stuff than normal feces?

And yes, I accept that there may be a link between eating meat and colon cancer. However, as other people have pointed out, this link is far from cut and dried.

Finally, yes, every single bit of food you eat "rots" in your digestive system. That's why it smells bad when you poop. There's really no reason to use the pejorative word "rots" here though unless you're specifically trying to gross people out. No matter what, your digestive system contains large colonies of bacteria which act on anything and everything that you put down your gullet. They are actually quite beneficial to you, they help you digest food that you otherwise couldn't, and they provide a number of nutrients that you wouldn't normally have available to you. Without them you would die, or at least be very very sick.

 

Just because I obviously enjoy "dumping" on a thread, here's a bit of gross out science for those who are interested. You have been warned.

The bad smell of feces mainly comes from the the oxidized products of the breakdown of the amino acids that make up proteins. These compounds have some rather lovely descriptive names. Examples include skatole (from scat), cadaverine, and putrescine. Other important smelly compounds include short chain fatty acids, such as butyric acid (the smell of rotting butter, and also interestingly enough an important flavor component of many smelly cheeses) and methyl mercaptan, the smell of rotting cabbage.

Note that animal proteins aren't the only ones that produce this lovely boquet. If you've ever smelled rotten grain or rotten soy products you know what I mean! With that, could we please put this "rotting" business to rest? Your arguement doesn't need emotionally charged words to make its case. If you have excellent facts they will speak for themselves. A suitable term free of bad connotations is "bacterial action."

 

You have waaaaaaaaaaay too much time. More time than I do. It's the weekend, MuayThaiGuy you should be freaking with some ladies, man

I only have time at the mo, to discuss a few points (and with one assailant at a time ). Will return to the others when I have time.

And humans would be ideal. But, even then there are genetic variations.

You overlooked a major factor in animal studies. Had the experiment not worked with animals, then there is a very high likelihood that it would also not work with humans.

I knew I should have kept a smiley in there!

 

I am a member of PETA - People for the Eating of Tasty Animals. I eat alot of seafood, some chicken, and enough red meat to keep my cravings at bay. I also eat a buttload (that's a whole lot for those not in the know) of fruits, vegetables, and nuts. You can call me an herbivore....I eat meat and plants.

And yes, beef jerky rocks! I go through a pack or two of that each week....expensive stuff, but it's SOOOOO good.