The arts Kajukenbo claim from the 5 founders are karate, judo/jujutsu, kenpo, American boxing. Also included is stick and knife from eskrima. As Kajukenbo further developed, Chinese boxing and other Chinese influence was added in many levels so the "bo" was both American boxing and Chinese boxing. Aikido is not in the list. However, schools add as they can. I add Aikido into my kajukenbo as well as BJJ and Muay Thai, for example. I know of some schools that add Aikido or Aiki-jutsu also into their mix. So it is quite possible that you found kajukenbo that included influences from Aikido, if that is what you are saying. For all of you that are questioning roadtoad on this... I ask you take a step back and not take this as an insult from roadtoad but maybe, and sorry roadtoad if I'm way off, that roadtoad is telling it how he was taught and in doing so, it sounds condescending to others who do not do it that way. I don't believe he means to be condescending. Put it this way, I remember some technical discussions with koyo and he told me that kotegaeshi should be done where the hand lies. In other words, you were not supposed to bring it up or into uke. Now the way we (Kajukenbo at our school) conduct this movement is NOT the way koyo said it should be. The way that we do it is to thrust uke's own fingers into his own eyes, cross-step through and bring uke down into a rear kuzushi. Yes we use uke's hand to to attack his own face. For safety in training, of course we work around this (just in case someone thinks you really should do this to uke). My point is that we are doing the technique wrong. The reason it works is actually because just prior to this, we stun or unbalance uke, usually in this case it is first with a kick to their knee or groin. If we don't first stun, then a larger and stronger and unwilling uke can counter the lifting of the hand. One of the counters is for uke to use their other hand to bring his wrist to a position close to the center of body where it is stronger. Another counter is to quickly raise the elbow and assume a hand position that looks like nikyo, and twist the hand out and/or use the other hand to push tori's hands off. If instead the technique is done as koyo said to me (and this is what roadtoad is saying too), to apply the lock where the hand lies... then uke has less chance of countering it because the lock happens immediately with leverage. However, koyo was not condescending about the way he said it, as he stated that was the way he PREFERRED but he didn't outright say others were wrong as there is a context to everything and sometimes the context of the situation warrants different variations of the techniques. Sorry roadtoad if I misunderstood you, but really you kind of pushed the wrong buttons in people when your statements appear as an attack on how people train rather than information that you have learned.
Sorry mate but you can't get much more condescending than stating that those people illustrated in the clips I posted were "100% wrong" in their method. I chose a cross section of well known aikidoka including the current doshu to illustrate that no one, and I'll go so far as to say - EVER HAS - performed kote gaeshi under the limitations roadtoad is stipulating. So no, I don't see there being anything other than condescension in his post.
Roadtoad, the Tomiki Aikido of Today I practice is old school very close to the way Hideo Ohba taught and practiced. My instructor spent time in Japan studying under both Kenji Tomiki and Hideo Ohba. As for the drunk throwing better punches Randori No Kata does not involve punches as its designed for toshu randori. The section in the clip showed the atemi section. You might not like what I and others practice as Aikidoka, but then I have not seen any evidence of your superior techniques. Shaun Hoddy
The application of kote is good point with regard to lifting the wrist, you have to raise the wrist a little to control the elbow, which inturn, takes the shoulder and then center/kuzushi. I think the big problem with kote is alot of people do a make huge wind up with the arm and uke gets there balance back, Seagal is guilty of it. If you just turn the wrist, yes it can hurt and take a bit of balance but there huge hole betwen ukes other hand and tori face. The main point/principle taught in Iwama is to keep moving, ALL THE TIME. no technique in Iwama is ever performed while when toris feet stop moving. Everytime kote is applied tori is moving BEHIND uke not to the side, where uke can fall into and attack. Look at Hitohiro in that video yes the arm gets cranked up a bit but Sensei is moving straight behind so uke cant punch. Look at doshu every time he applies kote, he stands still and uke had huge opening to attack
I'm just saying that we should try not to get another thread closed and locked because we can't agree on something. As I have been finding out, statements made on a world forum like this can often be interpreted in ways not thought of, like when I posted about atemi and Joe came and said there would be no ukes left if we trained like that. I wasn't even thinking people would take what I said to mean training in a reckless or unsafe manner. I was only intended to state applications of atemi... but then I was made to realize that not everyone reads the same words the same as others. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1231681&highlight=kote+geishi#post1231681
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVmOI4AY6d8"]YouTube - Doshu Moriteru Ueshiba Kotegaeshi[/ame] Watch here at 42 secs, where is doshus left hand? and where is his centre? "Always keep your hands in front of centre"...tut tut lol
o.k. I apologize. I've seen videos of isoyama ignoring his own principles. What happened, he was uchidesu with osensei since he was 12 (1949) So, the way osensei did, he promoted you a dan a year. So Isoyama was 6th dan by the time he was about 20, and joined the japanese air force. It turned out that in all of japanese defense force, he had the highest rank in any major art, so, they only have one academy for all the services in japan. They transferred him to the academy, and he only trained japanese officers for at least 30 years. Then he had a back injury. Then he retired. So, he's never been around but a handful of non japanese, until now. You see pictures of him with Steven Segal, but you never them working out together. Just b.s.ing So, yes, Isoyama has dropped a lot of his principles. I kind of think that he may have never totally recovered from his back injury. So, o.k., I'm a nobody. By definition, I am. I quit aikido to be loyal to osensei. I notice that a high percentage of your mods only 'used' to practice aikido, or 'never' practiced aikido, yet they all qualify as 'experts'. I was only trying to state isoyama's techniques as I knew them. But they, like even Saitos techniques, have sort of withered away in his old age. My main thing was to try and get a few aikidoka to try and develop ki, but even that is seeming more and more unlikely.
Yep, Isoyama is screwing up pretty good all right. I'm sorry. I was only trying to tell all you guys about isoyama, saito and osensei as I knew them. Everything now is so much different. I'm sorry, sorry, sorry. The worst thing of all is that fukushima is very close there. All of Japan is going through drastic changes now. All of it will be always worse than it always is. I still believe that the big ki is possible. Is it possible that any of you to accept me as a semi-human?
With all due respect, some techniques in videos are shown at a level for learning purposes with larger circles. I believe that eventually the circles get smaller and this is part of the "hidden" aspects in that you don't see this in the fundamental movements done in training exercises in video. Here's some more from koyo. One which is related to atemi. These are not seen in most Aikido videos. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1231873 http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1232435
Two of my favorite atemi are during kaiten nage, knee to ribs and / or knee to head during or slightly before the throw. The second is during shihonage, I swing my hips around and thru ukes hips, kind of like that famous dance of the disco era "the bump." my shihonage isn't that great, so I need all the help I can get!
Not sure embra exactly the techniques described above, but would it be similar in principle to the technique at about 6:20 minute mark against a downward knife strike in the following video? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGEzqaODvZY"]YouTube - Judo - Kyuzo Mifune[/ame] Hey and folks I'm seeing that Kyuzo Mifune also uses many atemi in Judo and on kote gaeshi he does raise the hand a little bit. I think the KEY is that these are very small circles and not large ones. So ideally, as you get better the circles get smaller and more powerful.
From another thread which shall not be linked to From karate training, all blocks can be strikes and all strikes can be blocks. So blocking is done as an atemi. The block can be done to stun the enemy as in much of karate, or the block can be done to cut through a kuzushi in Aikido to unbalance. The all out block just to protect yourself by giving up your arm instead of getting hit in the head is only a last resort and is not preferred if possible. Edit: so the old saying that there are no blocks is true but not to be taken completely literally, IMHO. It is said there are no blocks in karate, for example, because all blocks are strikes. There are both hard and soft strikes depending on the striking surface used in the technique. So there are also hard and soft blocks which are strikes. Not to be confused with covering and protecting vital areas. Like how a boxer uses his elbows and forearms to protect from body punches or raises his shoulder and tucks his chin to protect form head punches. Technically some call these blocks but I refer to that as covering and not blocking. Just a clarification because covering to protect vitals is part of the do not get hit principle and should always apply.
When I say this Im talking about stopping the movement, ukes and toris, yes if its an Omote feeling with strong atemi, but with ura movement like Kote you would never get the application on if you 1st tried to block the punch then apply the tech. Look at Hitohiro in the kote video he blends with the strike "Turn and face the same direction as the attacker" I think when you see the Karate masters there blocking is striking
I'll take a look at the video some more. But one thing is evasion or getting off the line of attack and entering is very important. Turning to face the same direction as the attacker is tenkan, which was explained to me as "entering backwards". However, in situations where there are multiple strikes from the attacker, I think most will find that getting off the line of attack can be very difficult. Evasion alone is not going to work well as strikes will come in before you can move anything more than a few inches. It may become necessary to cut the attacker's arm to the side or into them while using atemi with the other hand. Some call this strike to the arm a parry, but it is done as a soft strike or a check. A parry is not good unless you establish an unbalancing grab with it, otherwise nothing keeps the attacker from retracting their arm or cutting their way back out. IME. So you may not see the hard blocks but you do see the soft blocks in Aikido done to cut the attacker's arms to the side or into them. Particularly when uke is throwing multiple strikes like that of a kick boxer. IMHO. This is all related to atemi.
Oh yes, I do agree (forgot to say that before). If you use a hard block to stop movement, you can effectively create space from the collision and in doing so, you will not have a technique as there is no blending to keep things sticky and tight for leverage. I think this is why it is important to cut through and not "bounce" when applying atemi to unbalance in Aikido. I'm thinking this is more of a redirection rather than stopping momentum.
These are examples of a redirection or parry that has an unbalancing grab applied. This is more to do with the way uke is attacking. IMHO. If uke attacks differently, such as yokomenuchi, you may better see the blocking motion done to cut through uke's arm to the side or into them, such as in this: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ERsByetg8"]YouTube - HD - Aikido Doshu Moriteru Ueshiba Sensei - 2010 Canada, Montreal - Yokomenuchi Shihonage[/ame]
I more than 100% agree with wado here. In fact, the principle I was given in aikido is: you attack the attack'. Your unbendable arm block could be considered a form of atemi. Pa-kua, for example, has a double arm, sweeping series of unbendable arm blocks, which all lead into one of 8 places of attack on your hand. There's even x-step that leads to an unbendable arm block against a front kick. Since people in karate and boxing are trained to bring their punching hand back in, a hard block is sometimes the only way to protect yourself
it's not about disagreement, it's about challenging inaccurate information. I'll happily bow out of this discussion *IF* you think I'm the reason why these threads have been closed.
Also, I don't know who trained the grandson, he wasn't raised around Iwama, I don't think. Anyway, that is not shihonage ura, that's omote. I don't know if I can come up with a video about ura, I'll see what I can do.
