Kotegaishi

Disagree entirely.

Kotegaeshi is one of the only principles that I could pull off regularly at speed on resisting returning BOXING style punches in full-contact MMA. Same as any aiki: if you treat it as a technique, you'll be focused on their hand, chasing their arms, waiting for that point of kime etc... if you train it as a principle: i.e. step in decisively with an attack and 'see them off' (follow what's going) it will work.

So with kotegaeshi, it's easy to take their wrist and hand on the way back (ride in on their retreating arm - there's your musubi), fold it over and follow through with an elbow to the face/chest (on someone about the same size an elbow to the solar plexus gets you the ideal angle to follow through with the kotegaeshi).

Of course, I didn't break anyone's wrist: it's difficult to grab even with 4 oz gloves (the straps on their gloves are generally wrapped around the wrist, affording it extra protection and making it more difficult to get a good grip in the first place), plus it's still relatively easy with a stiff dynamic arm to rip out of the hold before it goes on - but I have got the kuzushi and I have managed to get kuzushi by them having to wrench their wrist out of my grasp: it puts them on the defensive, breaks their balance and leaves them open for a second to follow through with a strike or another attempt at a throw/sweep/kuzushi etc).

Of course, you often end up eating the jab to get the 'ride in' but not every time, but hey, if you're afraid to get hit, you shouldn't be doing MA (and certainly not aiki, where half-baked guards and non-resistant training will get you clocked more often than most! ).

 

It was entirely accidental and I agree unnecessary injury.
I blamed myself for quite a while afterward, but interestingly my uke blamed himself so we agreed to share the blame!

P.S. We still train together.

 

Mr Punch
..has hit on an aikido principle not often mentioned and that is atemi and techniques must not be applied "from a platform". "Riding in" folowing a retracting arm is a classic example of this.All techniques are applied with the motion and momentum of the hip. Washing over is a description often used.
One problem with kote gaeshi is sweat on the wrist. If this happens the momentum of the technique places you in a perfect position for a foot sweep.

Below washing over. This is the instant after a sweep (kote gaeshi failed).

regards
edit
I always value the input from "cross trainers" etc.Makes me go and re-evaluate my own training.

 

Does anyone use the term "framing" when working techniques?

The frame is the foreground and the rest of your body is the background. The foreground is where you "cut" (e.g. your centerline) and movement is kept to the minimum necessary to get the job done. The background is what you are drawing the opponent's attention away from so that it can shift unnoticed and dynamically.

For Kote gaeshi I learned two different methods (these both from a strike, not a grab), one with framing the other without. The method without framing was done against a "static" arm (e.g. uke is not retracting the arm). It was to cut through the arm into a weakness in uke's balance, even grabbing the sleeve if necessary, and drop very low. As uke is unbalanced, apply kote gaeshi by driving towards the back and side of uke's heel.

The second method using framing for kote gaeshi goes like this: trap uke's elbow and forearm between your hands/forearms and cut through like a whip (to hyperextend the elbow like the beginning of Ikkyo). Using one hand, cut down the elbow of uke so that it is trapped against your hip, the other hand maintains the kote gaeshi by pointing uke's fingers towards his eyes. Drop uke using kote gaeshi.


Don't know how well I explained these.

 

I was always told when applying kote gaeshi to have ukes wrist no higher than your centre, keep it close and to turn your hips rather than twisting ukes wrist.

 

Hi Rebel

One of the techniques you speak of is our basic way of applying kote gaeshi. That is to align your body as you cut his attacking hand down and "trap" it against the hip. However a fundamental principle of kote gaeshi is that we must engage the other hand. Even if we break his wrist he can still strike us with his free hand. Therefor we ALWAYS atemi to engage his free hand. (if he does not block he is struck)

Below I am about to unbalance him (again) by drawing his attacking hand to my hip this will unbalance him over the edge of his foot and draw him on to the atemi.As I turn the wrist I shall drive my hip into the rear kuzushi.

There are usually three points in every technique where the attacker may be unbalanced. Contact then unbalance again then the kuzushi into which you throw or pin him.

The other technique you describe sounds more like our ude gaeshi where the forearm is turned rather than the wrist alone.I am unclear on what you mean by framing.


regards koyo

 

Ah, yes, ude gaeshi would be a better description of the framing technique. The atemi I left out but it is to strike uke in the eyes with their own fingers.


As for what is framing, I have searched online and have not found that terminology used, yet I was taught it from a Kajukenbo Professor. The basic exercise for framing is to extend out the hands in front of the face as if to take a picture.

Uke then punches at your face, you move out of the way and slightly move your hands (the frame) so that uke ends up missing you. However when uke's punch goes between your hands you have it framed, and the technique works from that -- First trapping/engaging the elbow.

You can practice kote gaeshi, ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc. from the frame. Later on you don't need to use two hands to frame but allow it to appear spontaneously.

 

I understand you now. The difficulty was the triangular posture we use made me feel that "framing" was not appropriate. However from your explanation I think it may relate to our "deceptive opening" that allows a strike to enter. Below Bill has attacked an "opening" at my solar plexus which is deflected allowing me to enter and attack his face which shall create an opening in his defence.

regards koyo

Your other point about attacking his eyes with his own fingers...works a treet if he is holding a knife
Note that this technique like all empty hand techniques would apply against a knife. My right arm would cut down on his wrist as my left forearm cut up above his elbow. Good chance of breaking the arm.

 

Now that is interesting. I would not have thought bones would break.

This is what I would have thought would happen.

 

That's nice.

If you take it up at the start you can use it for an entry into tenchinage, any number of koshiwaza, sumi otoshi and a few other techniques.

If you take it down at the start you can use it for tenchinage, any number of iriminage or a straight ikkyo tenkan.

If you fold it in higher (bending the arm) you can get a good elbow into their face and go into a standing figure-four (like a straight in irimi chicken wing shihonage).

If you fold it in lower you can get a good headbutt in... or grab their nuts...

OK, so some of those henkawaza are not so very fluffily aikido but...

don't concentrate on just the fingers (wrist) or you'll miss the heavenly glory!

EDIT: the first 'That's nice' was not sarcastic BTW! That is the basic classical way to do kotegaeshi.

 

I'm guessing this was from more of a projection style 'big' kotegaeshi, right, Philip? The thumb-side metacarpals are way stronger than the little finger side, and at that angle I would have thought it would put more pressure on the arm bones over the wrist.

I would think this is more the folded-in type, which will bend and over extend the wrist more than the projected hand-blade type.

 

Depending on where you lose contact you can come back in for sumi otoshi (a favourite of mine: no fine motor skills involved... just a direction and as you say 'washing over'!) or an elbow/palm irimi/tenchi too.

 

I honestly don't know which type of kotegaeshi as it was a rather frenetic randori-type session

 

I always knew Mr Punch was a bad bad man

 

How can you say that? He is a FAMILY man.

regards koyo

edit

As I said , it is about time the bad guys were afraid of us.

 

One technique that almost no one ever thinks about, is, as you block tsuki, for kotegaeshi, just keep spinning around and a. hit him with an unfocused back fist and/or b. continue around to 360 degrees, and just continue to apply the technique.
Also, if you try it, you will still see the power of the 'only down' idea for kotegaeshi.

 

You never block tsuki in AIKIDO you never block anything in AIKIDO, you cant have blocking and awase there opposite principles.

 

There you go, someone talking about keeping uke's wrist low in kotegaeshi. That's more than good enough for me. Its just not the 'hip bump', you also have to double spin. If you're in sand, you'll see one 180 trace of the leg away from the block of tsuki, then, you bring that leg in, let your own feet touch each other, 'double whip' your hips,and the other leg should trace 180 degrees the other way in the sand. Osensei approved this manuver. Keep his hand down, or he can easily twist out of it.

 

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ME...

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