Toughening, "Iron Body" vs CUT, PUNCTURE, Blunt, etc.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Diagen, Jul 7, 2021.

  1. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    This discussion began in:
    how-hard-is-it-to-become-proficient-in-weapons-based-arts-compared-to-physical-fighting-ones

    Human skin can toughen and thicken. I do not mean dead callouses but living epidermis. This is a fact. The toughening is not a matter of mere thickness. Honey badgers of Africa have a hide that resists puncture and cuts. Taken up into the jaws of a lion it will survive once it escapes due to this durability of its hide and I suppose flesh, since it can withstand crushing forces as well. The honey badger is a berserking mammal that will raid beehives and castrate lions, and attack poisonous snakes to eat them. Perhaps its proclivity for berserker rage lends itself to the adaptations witnessed and its success, but that is up for discussion.
    Naturally, it makes sense that humans would toughen up their skin into a 'hide'. I do not suggest that people should cripple themselves, or delude themselves into thinking they're invulnerable, but it makes sense that a person could resist cuts and punctures to a degree. At the very least, a slash should cut shallow vs deep after being trained, and a dull knife may not cut at all the tougher and more well trained parts of oneself.
    Again, don't pin idiotic silliness onto me. It's just part of martial arts that one must combat delusions and illusions but this is just fact. The heel of a person and the foot sole in general is the toughest part of them, and this is what it goes through. You walk on it. If you had to walk on your hands they would become quite tough and thick skinned as well. Repetitive impacts and weight bearing will do this.

    Any and every martial artist should recognize the allure and benefit of training up the durability of the body. A tougher medium will resist a cut. A knife does not cut wood deeply. Flesh can also be trained as the epidermis can to be tougher, thicker, denser. This would also cut less. Besides blades, blunt impacts would be less wounding, and not bruise if it is not strong enough. One make strike the heel of the foot against the ground and be just fine. To land on your hands takes training though.

    Don't be cowards that run from this training and the discussion of it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2021
  2. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    This is factually incorrect. Of course it will affect the resistance of the skin to a blade, it's simple physics. If you mean to say something else, please reword your post. A cow's hide is not necessarily that tough per mm, but thick leather is used for motorcycle jackets and to stop knives all the time haha, what ignorance! Many people have experienced this fact. On this you are dead wrong and shutting out opportunity without good reason. Wild animals hardly train the durability of their skin and flesh, we as humans have that opportunity. If you're a martial artist, of course this kind of thing is an advantage no matter the scenario.
    What is this taboo against strengthening and toughening the skin and flesh?
     
  3. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Here is the honey badger being chewed on and showing no signs of blood. The lion gives up and leaves the honey badger alone.
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You do know honey badgers are like that due to genetics, not from training there skin to be rough.
     
  5. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Honey badgers don't really have the option to train. Humans can train, humans can incidently develop through their actions a tougher hide as well.
    Training can add milimeters to skin and make it tougher without thickening it, right?
     
  6. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Skin can of course toughen while remaining the same thickness. Being covered in soft and fragile skin as one pursuing martial arts makes no sense and is a state to move away from.
     
  7. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award



    Interesting.
     
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  9. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    FAKE NEWS!
    He's clearly using a knife in that video, and honey badgers are impervious to lions teeth under certain circumstances in particular scenarios, therefore its possible for a human heel to resist bladed attacks from the Borrowers.

    Or something like that.
     
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  10. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Are you doubting the video of the badger being chewed on? It clearly shows it chewing it. It's well known that badgers walk away after fighting and being in the jaws of lions. This includes more aggressive and powerful male lions. There's no way to discredit this fact. The skinning video doesn't dismiss this point. The knife enters the soft and thin inner skin, and neither of us know if being stung by snakes and bees all over leads to thicker and tougher skin or not. If it does, then there are badgers with tougher hides from those experiences alone, and most stings would be on other parts of the body.
    None of what I'm talking about is based on stuff I've seen on youtube of stunts or books making claims. It's just logical that you can train the skin and flesh. No one according to you has made it an art and science to develop the toughness of the skin and flesh. It has not been done according to public or rather common knowledge. How can you be so derisive when it should be a common facet of martial arts training?
    The results from human training should outdo any mammal hide though. The required stimulus for a very tough exterior would be constant, tedious, and gradual. I believe human skin can beat any buffalo or badger hide with the right training. It's just not that hard to believe.
    The whole body could be tougher than the heel of your foot.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2021
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Mod note: please see other message on another thread where you posted profanity. It is not allowed. Thanks.
     
  12. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    The problem is that your belief isnt born out in reality.
     
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  13. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    You have no true basis to dismiss it except a conservation of your own time and energy. There is no intellectual merit behind it. Thickness of skin is not the final say on durability, as light scrapes are severe on weak skin whether thick or thin, and scrapes are not severe on tough skin whether thick or thin. Skin's durability can be improved and the training involved to do so is not found to be done. Find me one person that does such training; it will involve rubbing with the hands and slapping at first, then harder strikes possibly with some piece of wood and scrubbing with some thick bristle brush, the scrubbing and striking gradually increases over time and one may use a harsh harsh fiber brush along with very strong strikes to beat themselves. If you can find me someone that diligently trains this way every day then you have found 1 in a 10 thousand. To find someone who has done so for 5 years would be 1 in 100 million. The time it takes each day should be 30 minutes at least. After 2 years decent results should be found, and after 10 years, if one properly progresses, the skin should be very tough. If this is not a result martial artists should strive for then martial arts is meaningless or no one is much of a martial artist because it is such a simple and desireable thing.

    Stupidity such as mine has lead men to ignore everyone around them and gain strength. This is how Eddie Hall exists. People like Eddie Hall existed in the past as well, it is not a modern phenomenon. It is just too simple for such high minded intellectuals to concieve of. My apologies to you more intelligent folk.
     
  14. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    You're making the claims. The burden of proof is on you.
     
  15. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    There is no burden. The intellectual hostility is inborn you and other posters, even though it is not an unreasonable conjecture. There are those that can pierce a coconut with their finger; they can do a handstand on 1 finger alone for extended periods of time. This is not natural and you wouldn't believe it's possible until videos popped up. This is the mistake of your cynical attitude. Structures of the human body that are naturally pliable can most definitely become stiff, solid and weight bearing. Your judgement is skewed by the dull repetition of average average average, internet internet internet. That is your mold now.
     
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Let me make a guess......

    Your a fan of Jordon Peterson too?
    (You write like a JP fanboy)
     
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  17. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Active Member

    We have just strayed into the ugly nether regions of the internet…
     
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  18. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    If you were in a town, and no one worked out or did labor that would result in much strength, what would you believe about what one is capable of in that regard? You would believe that humans are very weak and such and such rock or log can't be lifted. If one person worked out because he got a crazy idea, and he is stronger than everyone around him, you would guess that he is a superman and wonder how he did it. How!? You see him lift stuff up and put it back down -- that can't be it, he was born with it! People think like that all the time. But let's say you think, "yeah sure but no matter how much you lift you can't be much stronger than this guy!" let's say he's not that strong compared to the world of strong people. He can deadlift 400 or something, the second strongest guy can lift 275 or something and he's thought of as pretty strong too, but not like #1! Not even close! Well the deadlift world record is about 1100 lbs. More than twice of #1.
    The toughest person, with the toughest skin and flesh you know of, probably doesn't even reach the scale of the 275 lb deadlift. You wouldn't really know either way it's not obvious and no one is testing stuff like that or talking about it. No one diligently scrubs their skin near-raw and beats themself every morning and night, every day, for years. 10 years of that level of dedication is not seen often. Ignorant.

    I've talked intelligently with people before Jordan Peterson was a thing and now decomposing problems, gathering facts, being academically literate and open minded means you're a Jordan Peterson fan if you stand your ground and question commonly held beliefs. I don't have anything against him though.
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    An adult Gorilla will always be stronger then an adult human.

    Thats genetics!
     
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  20. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Another way of approaching this.
    Prove that someone can deadlift 1000 lbs. Back when the strongest person you could find deadlifted 500 lbs and that was amazing, how could you prove that 1000 lbs was possible?
    Prove that you can make the skin as tough as the skin on your heel. ??? No one is competing in this way. Prove that you can toughen your feet to the point where a blade can't cut it -- generally speaking, if you have a callous a knife will not easily cut it so that's one way of proving it. Doing the same thing with live skin is of course more difficult. If the question was whether you can stand on a single canine or end of a horn (rounded bone point) with the heel of your foot, I think that's relatively easily achieved. If people were really competing, I'm sure doing a 1 arm handstand on the end of a horn point or canine is quite feasible, and without crippling yourself. There is nothing unreasonable about this.
     

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