God these threads become absolutely tedious with all the constant reference to Muay Thai as the be-all end-all. That coming from someone who lives it and trains it and fights it. Seriously... overselling it doesn't do anything for anyone. Muay Thai this and that... RAWR!!! Seriously. Grow up. Ironically... I have been in camps where they do work out finer points of the Muay Thai roundhouse by kicking it slowly and leaving it on the bag. That's right a kick is thrown slower and makes the impact on a bag and then is held there at point of impact. No it's not full speed nor full power. The point is to show the conditions at the point of impact. So as to make the kids aware of exactly what position their foot and shin need to be in relation to the bag/opponent. It's also done like that as a drill to improve balance. It's primarily for the little ones coming in and of course they do all the regular full speed/full power kicks as well or as we used to say at Jocky... All power/All the time. It's entirely akin to having someone do plyometrics. Explosive movement. At some point early on.. they're going to need cues. Which usually require breaking the move down slowly and piece by piece to help the person doing it get their head around it. It's a great drill for helping novices learn exactly what position their bodies should be in at the point of impact. It doesn't take long to improve their kicks if they can get their head around the simple bits broken down. You don't start someone off doing heavy duty box jumps or barbells squat jumps without first breaking down the different components of a squat first. Seriously. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Some people get it and dig their heels in so deep they don't realize there are tons of variations. So from someone who's lived in Thailand, trains and fights Muay Thai... yes there are drills that are similar to what the karate guys mentioned... yes the get done at times by Thai's and westerners. Mostly by little kids when they're getting clued into the finer points. I use the same drill for many novice fighters starting out to show them the possible variations in how the hip needs to rotate and how the heels needs to elevate in order to allow the leg and hip joint to generate the most force. It's not like this is something new... I picked it up in Thailand. Are you going to see Buakaw doing them in a seminar? lol.... what do you think?
You know fine well that they're talking about things like that which bill wallace is talking about - and if you're being completely honest, you'll freely admit that the thais don't do that crap. you should also know fine well that it's quite frnakly impossible to do correct thai technique that slowly. As for the comparisons with thai boxing, since it came up, the OP specifically asked about this in relation to practicing his thia style kick so why don't you actually take things in context instead of posting simply to contradict someone you don't like. I get it, you don't like me, and I, from everything I've ever seen of you, reciprocate the feeling. but please don't come on and tell me to grow up when you clearly let said dislike of me colour your every response to the point where you deliberately nitpick and try to argue things in a deliberately selective manner. Have a look at your own attitude first before you post ANOTHER of your damned repetitive "grow up guys" comments again mr moderator. despite how a large quantity of you posts these days go on about how "YAWN!" some of these threads are, it never seems to discourage you from reading them or eventually becoming involved. Get off the high horse mate.
The drill I'm talking about is essentially the Thai equivalent of what they're on about. It's not my drill I got it from watching the trainers work with the Thai kids at camp. Some day get yourself to Thailand and then you might understand there are things that go on the don't exactly fit your current perceptions of Muay Thai via the route of seminars you've been to and second hand info from mates. Sigh. It's all fine and well that he's asked about it in relation to Muay Thai. I don't think anyone has taken issue with that. But I find it ridiculous as it seems every thread you wander into it becomes the whole RAWR! effect with Muay Thai in relation to everything. Like you? I don't even know you other than by what you post here at MAP. Nothing personal other than you seem to be trying so insanely hard to convince people that you are the true source for all things Muay Thai. This thread is a case and point. I've lived in Thailand and trained there long before you took it up... there is a drill similar to what's being talked about and I've posted it up. So really... just because you didn't hear it second hand from a mate, see it in a seminar or read about it online... doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Save your admonishments for those who are emotionally attatched to you.. I frankly am not. lol... My point is selective and deliberate as you are making it out that nothing like the drill that's being talked about exists in Muay Thai... I am deliberately and flat out telling you that something similar does exist in camps, Thai's use it... westerners have used it and if you'd been to Thailand and actually trained there instead of relying on second hand info then you might actually know and tone down the whole RAWR!! Muay Thai bit in this thread. Again... you're just off your moms apron strings and certainly in no position to tell anyone what to do. lol. 1) I'm not your mate 2) non sequitor much? To further avoid derailment of this thread if you have a response to anything other than the drill I mentioned as it pertains to the Thai roundhouse then do myself and everyone a favor and PM it to me. If you do have some insight or first hand info regarding the drill then by all means post up. But so far what you're trying to post up as absolute died-in-the-wool fact about Muay Thai isn't necessarily true.
"similar" - please tell how it's similar. I'd love to point out the differences. As for not training in thailand, you know that I train regularly with thais. We have some who live here and we regularly have fighters over for months at a time to coach - my knowledge isn't all second hand as I pointed out. And for all you're big talk about derailing the thread - i noticed that you've posted 3 times in this thread, and not a single one of them is directly contributing to the OPs question as to whether or not kicking slow trains power and flexibilty in a thai kick. It doesn't. Argue that if you want but we'll both know you're just doing it to be difficult.
It is clear everyone differs widely on this issue, just as everyone was taught in a different way by a different teacher. For me, I like what Bill Wallace is able to do even at his age, and when he was in his prime, his kicks were as fast as most men's punches. I have trained a group of our elite fighters over the past several years in his methods. These people have stood head and shoulders above the competition (our team has been the number one rated team in NSW for six years running), and I can't help but believe his drills were a big part of that. Their kicks not only increased in height from this training, but they became lightning quick. This is the only "case study" I need. It works for me, so I will continue doing the slow kicks--they work. I respect everyone's opinion here, but for me, I have all the evidence I need.
There are three things you must do if you want high kicks: 1) Increase passive (static) flexibility. 2) Increase dynamic (kinetic) flexibility. 3) Increase strength in the agonists (prime movers or "kicking muscles"). However, before you do any of the above you must determine what type of kick you want to develop. Just as there are different types of strength and endurance there are also different types of kick. Note that by "different types of kick" I am referring to the method of delivery rather than the actual technique itself (e.g. roundhouse kick vs side kick). Since it has been mentioned, I will use the roundhouse kick as an example. Most members here would agree there are generally two ways to deliver a roundhouse kick in modern martial arts: A fast "snapping" movement focusing on speed of delivery over power generation. This method features several kicks delivered in quick succession with the same leg without touching the foot to the floor. Some of you might liken this method to Bill Wallace's style or modern-day sport karate/semi-contact Taekwondo tournaments. A powerful "whipping" movement focusing on penetration and follow-through. This method is more akin to full-contact fighting such as Muay Thai and K-1. Some of you have referred to this as the Thai roundhouse kick. It is relevant to state that each of the above methods is specific to the needs of its environment. That is, method #1 doesn't particularly belong in full-contact fighting and method #2 is no good in a semi-contact tournament where power of delivery is restricted. Training for either method requires exercises which develop specific attributes (and specificity is the buzzword here). Neither is better than the other and it is entirely possible for an individual to develop both (I do). That said, if you are a semi-contact fighter you should primarily concentrate on passive (static) stretches, static holds and consecutive kicks while keeping your knee up in the air. Full-contact fighters should focus on passive (static) stretches, dynamic (kinetic) stretches and kicking a heavy bag or dense foam. It goes without saying that both types of fighters should regularly perform full range of movement compound strength exercises such as squats, deadlifts and lunges with moderate to heavy weight. If you want advice on how to correctly arrange exercises in your workouts you can consult the following thread: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89245 In basic terms your ability to perform kicks "cold" (without a warm up) will not improve until you are able to display your maximum passive (static) flexibility when cold. This usually occurs 1-3 months after reaching your maximum passive (static) range of movement with a warm up. Whether you want fast snapping kicks or powerful whipping kicks -- without a warm up -- you first need to examine your passive (static) flexibility. Splits are a good baseline for this. I can already picture some of you spitting potato chips all over your computer screen as you scream that passive (static) flexibility (and thus passive [static] stretches) are not specific to dynamic (kinetic) flexibility. You're right that passive (static) stretches won't necessarily increase your dynamic (kinetic) flexibility. But the range of your dynamic (kinetic) flexibility is limited by the range of your passive (static) flexibility. Exceeding the range of your passive (static) flexibility when doing dynamic (kinetic) stretches will turn the exercise into a ballistic one -- and that is a big no-no. Let's say you can perform a split to 140 degrees. You should keep your dynamic [kinetic] stretches within this range. The angle between your thighs in a dynamic (static) stretch -- a leg raise to the side for example -- should not go beyond 140 degrees. And for those of you who can "only" stretch in a split to 140 degrees, know that this range of movement in ample for most people to kick at their own head height. Here is a picture of what kicking at 140 degrees looks like: You can place a protractor on your screen and measure the angle between Bill's thighs if you don't believe me. When doing multiple snap kicks on one leg you are displaying a number of different strength types, most notably isometric strength in the iliopsoas, tensor fascia latae, gluteus medius, piriformis, rectus abdominus, transverse abdominus, internal & external obliques, erector spinae, serratus posterior inferior and latissimus dorsi. Strength is position specific. Therefore slow kicks -- especially holding a kick in place ("static holds") -- are ideal for developing the strength needed to hold your chambered up there as you throw multiple kicks. Note that passive (static) flexibility development is especially important as range of movement suffers a 5-30% decline when holding your leg in place. Slow kicks are also useful to full-contact fighters for the merits of technique development which have already been discussed in this thread. The wise practitioner is the one who invests in both types of training methodologies however. I'm often asked what it takes to be a great kicker. Many people seem to think there must be a trade off between speed and power. There are actually seven attributes which I believe are absolutely essential to being a great kicker. These are: timing, distance, control, accuracy, endurance, speed and power. Note that this list is in no particular order of preference. It isn't until an individual has all these attributes in spades that they can be considered a great, or even good, kicker.
Totally off topic and immature, I know, but I never thought I'd ever be reading the likes of the following sentence: That is all. I now return you to regularly scheduled thread as I go off into a corner and begin to ponder whether grad school is melting me brains.:cry: paz, dormindo
Great post, VZ. What's funny is I can totally see VZ sitting in front of his computer with a protractor measuring the angle between Bill's legs.
On a possible side note Feel Free to split this off to a separte thread, but as much of the thread has focused on the two type of roundhouse and their effectiveness. What does everyone's opinion on the results of the national geographic fight science episode where they compare kicking effectiveness? I am especially interested in Slip's and MB's take on this one. When I get a chance I'll see if I can get a direct link. http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/fight-science/ For now the general one will have to do. I'll hold my thoughts till we've gotten a few responses.
Do you mean the one where they compared several different kicks and mysteriously found out that by grabbing and kneeing a guy you can deliver a lot more force than most kicks simply because you're now pulling your target into your strike? Yeah, that was a bit flawed, in case you didn't realize.
No this was the one comparing capuarai (sp) to other TMA. It had the moving platform as part of the the experiment but that has many possible flaws. I was thinking more of the pretest where the Platform was stable. ' It was in the stealth fighter Episode. Kindof a buried jewel so to speak
Kenji Midori worked slow squat kicks frequently. Here he is demonstrating his roundhouse kicks: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj2cQhxy6sY&feature=related"]YouTube - Kyokushin karate speed kick tutorial[/ame] I certainly would not ever want to be kicked by that man. Different strokes for different folks.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. taking technique out of the equation, explosive power comes from training the muscles with explosive exercises. Given all the different views by leading physios out there etc. this is commonly agreed upon by most of them. Explosive power comes from muscles with explosive potential which they only gain by training explosive movements. not slow squats, not slow kicks not slow anything. the fact that someone does it does not mean that's why they have power.
Not necessarily. That definitely helps, but building maximal strength can also increase explosiveness. Everything is related. If you can squat 600 pounds for one rep, chances are you can be pretty darn explosive with 300-400 pounds. The stronger a muscle gets, the more explosive potential it has. The two are not exclusive to each other. EDIT: Just to continue along that point: in Olympic lifting once you have the technique down a lot of work is then based on supporting exercises. One of the best exercises for the clean is the front squat which, despite guys working them heavy and grinding out reps, adds serious poundages to their cleans. All strength is related.
Ok since you're not able to figure out how the drill I pointed out is similar then I'll have to spell it out: The OP's original post was about slow kicking drills. My posted drill was about what is essentially a slowly thrown Thai style roundhouse that is then held on the bag while you are up on one foot in the end position right at the point of impact. It's not that hard to see the similarity between the two drills. The two kicks are different. No one has argued they're not. At least I haven't. The drill doesn't work if the Thai style roundhouse is thrown full speed or power... but the mechanics are the same... in case you didn't realize it... a Thai kick can be thrown slower. I do it all the time with students... especially when thrown to the neck. So do many other trainers... Malaipet throws his kicks when training at about half speed and certainly half power in drills. It's not as if the Muay Thai kick in training is all power all the time. It all depends on what you are trying to point out and what you are trying to explain to your student. The mechanics of the kick can be entirely different but it's of no real import as what's being focused on in the drill is to show the student the posture, point of balance/center of gravity, why the legs needs to be strong enough to support it, where the heel rotation and why the ball of the foot is the main support and the heel is up to allow the roundhouse to strike unimpeded by the heel on the ground. I must use about a dozen slowly thrown roundhouse kicks on a student for explanation to the rest of the class and other students. As an instructor you can't throw full power kicks to the armpit or the floating rib or the obliques on your students. There are many instances where a kick on the bag thrown full power isn't going to be very useful for explaining the more subtle points in the various stages of a kick. So what then? Just gloss it over? Hope the students get it by osmosis? Injure your students. I prefer to think things through and look for tools that are useful for explaining the components of a kick that don't run the risk of me creasing a student. Much of what I use in this respect I've gotten off of training with other fighters. Many things I'm using at the current moment are from training with Teelek Fairtex... he's obviously not throwing full power/speed when he shows me the stuff or I wouldn't have a head and I'd be minus a ribcage. The drill must really be something of a shock for you because it obviously rocks the foundation of your beliefs in how Thai's train and that any person Thai or not could possibly train with a drill similar to a Karate or TKD drill really seems to tie you into fits of insecurity. You really should relax and realize there is more than one way to skin a cat. Is it the optimal way to build strength for a roundhouse? No of course it's not but it is a great tool for teaching the angle of the shin and torso during the point of impact. It's also a great tool to show where the heel needs to be. Different people learn different ways. Not everyone teaches the same either. I've been teaching this for quite a while and I've seen all types of learners and all types of instructors. I picked up the drill way back in the day in Thailand... the reason it stood out so much is precisely because I hadn't seen it at another camp. The young Thai kids being shown this were able to get their head around it and they did all the other drills associated with Thai camps. So what do we have from all of that: 1) kicks are not thrown full speed 2) kicks are not thrown full power 3) kicks are held statically for a time in position of impact 3) students walk away with an increased understanding of the strength needed to maintain the supporting leg 4) students walk away with an increased understanding of the actual mechanics because it's been broken down to separate components 5) student walk away with some gains in proprioception - which are linked to both strength and flexibility Is it being argued that this teaching technique is the premier way to build absolute strength? No. Is it being argued that this teaching technique is the only one to use or the only one Thai's use? No. Is it being argued that this teaching technique should replace kicks at full speed/power? No. Is it being argued that this style of teaching suits all students and all instructors? No. Sure knock yourself out. But you're entirely missing the point. No one is arguing there aren't differences - In fact look above... I've just pretty clearly explained that there are quite a differences. So you're having an argument of 1. The tool is a useful one for strength and flexibility primarily because it allows the person doing it to understand where their body and limbs and torso need to be in relation to an opponent at the point of impact. To get stronger there are lots of great techniques out there for getting stronger... squats/dead lift/Bulgarian split squats and TVA work for one... just as there are many way to get more flexible... such as dynamic stretching and all the other forms of flexibility training. There are drills which can help as student get their head around the why's and the hows of doing a said technique... beyond doing the technique. It's a subtle but crucial distinction to make. No one can force you to make it. Personally... I'd really have to question the skill and intent of any trainer who couldn't make that distinction and has dug his heels so far in that he's unwilling to remain open to new possiblities. Well good for you... lots of people train with Thai's. Training with Thai's a few times a week isn't the same as training in Thailand across a good spectrum of camps over several years. Get there... do that... and you'll then understand what I mean. Just because you're having trouble what's being understood doesn't mean it doesn't pertain. So really you need to wind your neck in a bit. You can respond to what's been posted and how it applies to the OP's question and is easily in the realm of acceptable thread drift and conjecture... or you can not post... or you can PM me with blather related to you feeling persecuted or me not liking you... there's your three options. Have at it. Good now take a class full of novice nak muays who don't do much if any supplemental weights training and don't have any clue how to properly incorporate a plyometrics program into their training let alone perodize it and you end up with a situation where the instructor needs to be able to have any tool at hand to get their heads around the finer points of the kick and how it generates power. Just having them kicking full speed, full power - explosively as it were is pretty much pointless if they haven't got the right alignment or anything else. ' You have your terms mixed up. Physios? They don't often deal with plyometrics programs. Which physios are you referring to? If you mean to say personal trainers... well... most PT's have no clue about plyometrics. If you had said college level athletics coaches then I might be inclined to believe... but physios? Their main concern is rehabilitation of existing or previous injuries and generally they aren't prescribing anything remotely plyometric or explosive. You really need to get your head around what progression is in the training world and how it factors in. Because if you start just by handing out explosive movements and plyometrics with no periodization and no build up then your just driving your students towards injury plain and simple. Out of curiosity - this explosiveness that you speak of... have you actually trained it yourself? Care to give us an example of what your explosive or your plyometric program actually looks like?
I'm just jumping in here in this, and I haven't been following this debate, BUT No offense meant, Master Betty, but you really aren't making any kind of scientific or logical argument against using slow squats, kicks, or any kind of training method to increase explosiveness, quickness, and power. To say that to be fast you must do everything fast is, quite simply, too simplistic. Slow squats, especially with a very heavy weight (which would be more like a negative), would be quite isometric, and isometric exercises coupled with dynamic ones (i.e. complexes) have a HUGE effect on the CNS and are being used more and more by a lot of the big names in the industry. Joe DeFranco, Zack Even-Esh, Alwyn Cosgrove, John Chaimberg, etc. You have to look at what constitutes speed and what makes it possible. Simply saying that slow squats won't be productive because they are done slowly, whereas you want to move quickly, is not logical when you consider the evidence for isometrics and slow (but intense) movements. Again, if I've got something wrong (because I've just jumped into the thread), then please excuse me.
No, you're correct, and I'll willingly say there are a lot of people on this forum who have a much more in depth knowedge in that direction than I do. However it's completely irrelevant to kicking slow - invariably this thread derails into arguements about semantics. Ie. the heavy weight squats etc, or arguments about technique. For a thai kick, kicking slow will not develop power, flexibility or speed. That's about as direct an answer that's been given yet on this thread and so far, people have argued with it by providing arguements that are only relevant to something else entirely lol.
