Real Life story for those who doubt Chinese medicine

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by jinkan, Feb 19, 2011.

  1. Rhizome

    Rhizome Super Valued Member

    This is true but it still doesn't detract the fact that herbology is a massive part of TCM as a healing system. Many of the herbs TCM practitioners prescribe do have proven qualities so maybe there is some basis to TCM as a healing system or maybe these practitioners are just keeping up to date with current research on botanicals. Any practitioner worth their salt won't stay truly locked in tradition and the ones i do know regularly research the latest natural study publications and journals.

    For example the bitter herbs that a TCM practitioner prescribes for bile/liver stagnation actually do have proven benefits as a bile stimulant and hepatoprotective properties.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  2. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    Yes, and so could you if you had spent five seconds using Google. [ame=""]BAYER AG CORP. (Aspirin) SPREADS HIV WORLDWIDE - YouTube[/ame]

    Nothing, until people begin casually throwing around terms like, "conspiracy theory." What I hate about that term is how sweepingly dismissive it becomes. Suddenly, all conspiracies are just the delusions of paranoid people. Never mind that conspiring for profit is pretty much the norm in corporate culture. We live in a world where there are numerous examples of verifiable fantastic conspiracies and yet we still treat all conspiracies like they are absurd.
  3. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Knighty, you should do more research before making such sweeping statements. Took me 20 sec to find this on google:

    Considering Malaria kills more people on the planet than pretty much anything else, I guess you could say that this could well be a drug that saves more people on the planet than any other... I don't know the stats on that, but since we're generalising to such a degree.. ;)
  4. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Placebo....the mind is a powerful thing.
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Looking at the link inthespirit posted about Artemisinin I was struck by this...

    As far as I'm concerned this is exactly the kind of thing we (the nominally anti-TCM people) are on about.
    So many treatments and only a few (it doesn't say how many) were found to have any effect for the thing they were said to be effective for. The vast majority had no effect at all.
    In other words...the chinese had found something effective but because they lacked the scientific method and proper trials to truly work out what it was it was hidden in amongst all the other stuff (that didn't work).
    It seems to me that if you take further scientific studies and findings as evidence that "TCM treatment A" works then you must also accept the flip-side that science has also found a lot of it to be no more that sympathetic magic, placebo and outright woo-woo.

    As with most alt-med areas when science finds a bit of it that works they use it as evidence in their favour but when science finds out it doesn't "it's using the wrong paradigm" or something.
  6. Rhizome

    Rhizome Super Valued Member

    You have to accept the above with modern medicine also though, i love how everyone glosses over the facts inthespirit posted above about a large percentage of modern medicine not knowing whether the prescription medication they prescribe daily are actually beneficial or harmful. The study showed that a percentage actually are harmful and not beneficial yet are still being prescribed ?.

    It works both ways and just because some medications don't work or are harmful doesn't mean the rest are crap. Same goes for alternative medicine.

    I don't think any pro-alternative advocate would say that everything works that is on the market there is far too much assumption going on but again it is no different than many prescription and over the counter medications which have shown time and time again to be little to no better than placebo for treating X condition yet remain on the market. Too much selective pickings what people like to hear when it comes to this stuff.

    I have no problem accepting where certain alternative medicines have been proven to be no better than placebo, homeopathy is one of these areas which has consistently shown to be no better. But the problem with anti-alternative advocates is that they tend to look at certain areas such as homeopathy which have proven to be bunk and lump everything else in with it, which isn't fair either. Failure to accept that there are proven alternative medications is another problem with the anti-alternative crew, at least most of the pro-alternatives can accept modern medicine has its times and places.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The ratio of efficiacy against non-efficiacy is much more favourable for the conventional treatments though
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Oh and you never did answer btw!

    How do you reconcile increased life expectancy with an increase in exposure to modern methods in every area they have been introduced to if the non-conventional approach is both safer AND as effective?
  9. Rhizome

    Rhizome Super Valued Member

    As you say to me show me proof ? The facts that inthespirit posted would go against what you are saying. When we don't even know if around 50% of modern medications are actually beneficial or harmful in this current day and age then what do you say to that ?. Hardly a favourable ratio of efficiency.

    You haven't answered nearly any of my questions along the way nor provided any studies when asked so im not going to start with your demanding questions at the moment, sorry. I also never said anything about non-increased life expectency so it is a mute answer, i did say that modern medicine has its limitations and that many alternative treatments can be beneficial though especially for those who are having no luck or limited options with the modern route.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Evasion noted

    I answered the question you posed immediately, and the fact you will not answer this one simpel and absolutley pertinent question is telling

    And again you completely miss the point of what I said above.

    You state 50% of modern medicine is of underterminate value - OK, let us assume that is absolutely true and compare that to the 1 in 5000 efficiacy ratio also posted

    That gives herbal/alternative a percentage sucess ratio of 0.002%

    Yet this is somehow supposed to make us "poor skeptics" sit up and think???

    There are always problems with any treatment, but because method "A" has issues does not automatically follow that "B is better.
  11. Rhizome

    Rhizome Super Valued Member

    Wasn't an evasion and i ended up answering it in the end with my views anyway. You seem to be using assumption as i never once stated modern medicine didn't increase life expectancy which it clearly has. Does modern medicine have its limitations, yes in my opinion it clearly does also.

    No the study that inthespirit posted stated around 46% of prescription medications were not known whether they were beneficial or harmful yet remain on the market. That in itself is a disgraceful practice. I stated nothing i just reiterated this FACT.

    I don't think anybody has came to the above conclusion in this thread so far anyway, another assumption i guess.
  12. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Doesn't really make anything I've said untrue. The fact that there might be a few remedies that work purely by accident doesn't affect the fact that the essential basis of this system of 'medicine' is silly.
  13. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    The statement you quoted is quite ambiguous, for all we know out of the 5,000 maybe 4,999 we’re effective. The statement only hints that of the 5,000, Artemisinin was most effective.

    I don’t see how “anti-TCM” or for that matter “anti-modern” medicine stance is justified. I think this sort of bias only serves to limit the possibilities for potential cures.

    We should be looking at compounds/herbs/etc regardless of their origin and scientifically testing them for their effectiveness. This approach, as was used for Artemisinin, has obviously yielded something very positive for humanities fight against malaria. It would be ignorant and contrary to an already positive experience to resign all of TCM, or any other alternative or mainstream treatment, to the bin due to a disagreement in theory or what have you. One cannot simply think that because he/she finds their framework (A) superior to other frameworks (B, C, D, etc), that there is absolutely no benefit in any other method/framework. This would imply that framework A is complete and all else is rubbish, the scientific method does not provision for such thought, in fact I would say that it is strictly against the scientific method as this would mean labeling things ineffective without testing them. Whereas any and everything should be tested and analyzed for its merits regardless of origin or thought. Of course, if a compound, say mercury, goes against already known facts, then it can be ignored, but new and untested compounds should not be rejected out of ignorance.


    Sorry, I wrote the above reply earlier and did not have time to post it, there have been a few more replies since and I just wanted to add a few points.

    Sanitation and irrigation. Similar trends can be seen in areas which lack proper sanitation/irrigation (water supply, sewage, crop irrigation etc). Though, judging by the article on placebo effect I posted earlier, maybe that also is a contributing factor :)

    Your math is wrong here, we do not have info to justify these numbers with regards to TCM and Artemisinin, I mentioned the same above to PA Smith.

    Also, by my calculation, basis the BMJ info I posted earlier, modern medicine efficacy rate is more around 20-25% (or at least for the batch of treatments tested).

    Knighty, please see my above post for PA Smith, IMO it applies to your last comment too.
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Actually you are right - 1/5000 as a decimal is 0.0002...eitehr way it is miniscule

    These are vital, but only take us so far. Life expectancy now is longer than it was years ago, although the sedentary nature of the latest generation looks set to buck that guess what the medical professionals are all prescribing?

    Diet and exercise!

    The needs to probably be a separation of "modern medicine" and "big pharma" because they tend to be lumped together in the same way "natural remedies" and "alternative medicine" do.

    A natural remedy is - well diet and exercise is a good example actually. An alternative remedy would be a candle in the ass or crystals in the navel....probably not harmful, but not actually beneficial either
  15. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    We dont have the figures to justify this. For all we know it could be 4,999 out of 5,000.

    I'll have a google and see if I can get some figures or a case study for impact
    of sanitation etc on life expectancy. I'll post something if I find it.

  16. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Some interesting tidbits:

  17. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

  18. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

  19. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    You know what? I'm going to stop prodding. Because we're not actually arguing facts and figures here. What's happening is that I have an ideological reason for thinking that TCM is bunk- you see, I happen to think that selling joke medicines, often containing parts of endangered animals, to desperate people in order to make money is wrong. You think that TCM isn't bunk for reasons best known to yourself, and we're both using facts and figures to support, rather than provide a basis for, our arguments.
  20. Rhizome

    Rhizome Super Valued Member

    Althought TCM is probably more well known it isn't the only traditional healing system, Ayurveda is another popular one and is of Indian origin. Again not done much research into the above as the logic doesn't make much sense i.e dosha, pittas instead of chi.

    But they do utilize many herbs, foods and spices which are very well researched for their health benefits, aswell as many of the same herbs/etc that TCM uses.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012

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