Outward pointing knees

Discussion in 'Health And Fitness Archive - no posting' started by flaming, May 31, 2007.

  1. flaming

    flaming Valued Member

    Towards the bottom my knees point outwards.
    Is this bad?
    What stretch, soft tissue, and exercises should I do?
    I also have anterior pelvic tilt and kyphiosis.
     
  2. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    You probably think this sounds silly but I would really recommend you find yourself a good tai chi/xing yi/yi quan or ba gua teacher. Those sort of problems can be quite nasty in older age if they are not addressed, whereas internal martial arts correct these sort of imbalances in the body or mitigate them from causing you any serious problem. At the least its a good investment for your future health.
     
  3. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter

    It definitely sounds silly. How will tai chi address muscular imbalances exactly?

    flaming - I'm not sure what you mean, which part points outwards?
     
  4. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Tai Chi and other internal martial arts work in part by correcting structure to work in balance with gravity, increasing awareness and muscle control, releasing tension mental and physical. These are the sort of factors that contribute greatly to muscular imbalances.
     
  5. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I'm confused, do you mean when you squat or something?
     
  6. flaming

    flaming Valued Member

    If a stick was attached to my knees inline with them, the stick wouldn't go straight down it would be out to the side.

    "kneecaps out" I think thats whats wrong.
    http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-004-training

    I get pain in it sometimes due to the outer quad muscle.

    No when I squat I used do pistols but I found I had anterior tilt so ive stopped and am just doing single leg romanian deadlifts. Or attempting them....
     
  7. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Sounds like your pelvic alignment is out.

    And yes, TaiJi/XingYi and Bagua (taught correctly) sorts these structual problems out.

    Carys. :Angel:
     
  8. Awakening

    Awakening is on vacation

    Why don't you ask a doctor or other qualified medical practitioner? I'd take that kind of advice over mysticism any day.
     
  9. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    flaming, I'm really thinking this is something which should be handled by a professional, not via self-diagnosis on the internet. Knees can be especially tricky. Forget the t'ai chi for a sec, I think it was a bad idea to wander over to tnation in the hopes of diagnosis. You really ought to see a real live person.
     
  10. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter

    How can tai chi do this? I always wondered that, because people naturally have completely different structures and imbalances, yet everyone in a class does pretty much the same thing. People doing the same activity will not really get different results. If you have somebody who has internally rotated femurs compared to someone with externally rotated femurs, how on earth could doing the same program address these issues?
     
  11. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Well, it certainly makes you a good choice to take up Italian Rapier. It takes some people a long time to get that "knees out" stance right! ;)

    Seriously though, see a physiotherapist/kinesiologist. Some yoga couldn't hurt if your doctor thinks it's OK. Self-diagnosis bad. Seek professional advice.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  12. flaming

    flaming Valued Member

    Im the caveman.
     
  13. Apotheosis

    Apotheosis Valued Member

    Just be happy it is a muscular imbalance and not a bone problem.
     
  14. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    That’s a good question, I think probably a lot of people think much a long the same lines. The basic or foundation exercises/practices in internal martial arts are such so as to release tension and gain awareness in your structure. Outwardly this will look the same for everyone doing, more or less, but as we all have different bodies, everyone will identify a slightly different internal landscape so to speak. In turn each individual will have to deal with his own points of darkness, i.e. a place that one is not aware of or cant feel properly, and ones own points of tension. Many of these points of tension are also connected to the mind, a very basic example would be someone who keep their chest lifted up and shoulders presses outwards. This sort of posture is not natural as it relies on muscle tension to keep it in place, this in turn causes more tension in the rest of the body and mind. But the reason behind a person adopting such a posture may be mental, i.e. a teenager wanting to look bigger/harder/whatever. Thus when one begins to become aware of one’s body, one inevitable finds links between the body and mind on a similar basis as I just described.

    Basically, even though it seems that people are doing the same activity, each person is facing a personal set of problems, resulting from conditioning and tension in their own mind and body. There is no way I could know what would be entailed in internally rotated femurs or externally rotated femurs without experiencing it myself. But, as with most physical/structural conditions, each one will present its own set of tensions and such, and each individuals will be different. But if you give an individual a tool to remove tension from the body and teach them how to naturally align the body with gravity then you have already removed, corrected, or mitigated potential problems or at least part of the problem. In essence much of internal martial arts is about awareness, and many of the exercises work this facet of the mind, as well as others.

    However, since you specifically mention tai chi , I would just like to mention that most tai chi schools teach very watered down or even made up methods, these in turn only scrape the surface of what I just mentioned. However, there are also many good teachers out there if one is sincere and willing to look.
     
  15. flaming

    flaming Valued Member

    Is tai chi, ancient pilates?

    What do I do with internally rotated femurs then?

    Fill in the gaps please.
    Stretch the internal rotators:________.
    and strengthen the external rotators:_______.
     
  16. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Not really sure what Pilates is, but I'm guessing its some sort of mind/body practice. Tai Chi is probably not the same, but contains some similarities, Tai Chi is primarily a martial art, which involves perfecting ones ability to move in a most efficient method, i.e. least effort - maximum result, this in turn partly involves what I was gibbering about earlier.

    I have no idea what you would do with internally rotated femurs, but I'm sure if you had acute awareness of all the muscles involved in this scenario then you could release any tension that is causing the imbalance(s) which is in turn causing your femurs to rotate internally.

    If you want to correct the problem via Tai Chi type methods then you will have to put in the hours with a good teacher, there is nothing other than this that I can tell you to address the problem you proposed. The learning curb is slow and hard, but the results are great and many, it is an art you study for the rest of your life, not something that can be picked up and put down at will, its much too immense and complex.
     
  17. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter

    The question remains, how can the same program have different results for people with different problems? I do believe that tai chi has some good benefits but there is no way I would just say "do tai chi!" to someone with a problem like flaming. In fact, I would go as far to say that a large proportion of tai chi practitioners probably still have postural issues.

    It's all well and good talking about releasing tension and having an awareness of the muscles in question, but it's just not that simple.

    flaming - Strengthen the posterior chain, stretch the hip flexors. Soft tissue work wouldn't go amiss either. The Magnificent Mobility DVD by Mike Robertson and Eric Cressey is something that should help you out if you want to invest a little, it's great material that will help you get the best warm up too.
     
  18. flaming

    flaming Valued Member

    Thanks. I've got Magnificient mobility, i'll watch it again.

    I might buy 'Inside out' as well.
     
  19. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Hi, good question.

    We teach standing QiGong which shows up structual defects to an experienced teacher. We then work with individuals to help correct said defects, using Rolfing methods as well as manipulation and specific standing QiGong excercises, plus constant revising of posture.

    It takes a long long time....but....in most cases is 'do-able'

    I have been doing this stuff for 10 years and when I get someone else to check my posture it is usually OK. I have, however, spent a lot of hours over the past 6 years solving my own posture quirks ( my teacher vanished after 4 years...very Taoist!!)
     
  20. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I would also say that a large portion of tai chi practitioners probably still have postural issues. But I would also add that a large proportion if not 99.9% of people that do tai chi only do about 10-20% of the real deal, so to speak. Hence I say find a good teacher, a rare thing nowadays.

    I think your looking at it as typical gym “exercise program”. It is not even remotely similar to a gym “exercise program”. Different people will gain different benefits from doing the same internal exercises, because the exercises will address their individual weaknesses, and these will differ person to person. Furthermore the exercises are multifaceted and work several different aspects at the same time, such as mind, structure, balance etc, and all these work in synergy with each other, i.e. the better you get at one aspect the more positive knock on effects it will have on the other aspects. Furthermore, the methods also work in a way that corrects structural imbalances in the body by strengthening muscles which have atrophied and reducing the use of overdeveloped muscles, generally bringing your body in to balance, the way it should be. This balance is the optimal structure which your body should adopt for maximum efficiency and minimal effort, in other words it is a natural shape which the body can be taught to adopt in order to let the effects of gravity have minimal negative effects on the body and maximal positive effects.

    You are right its not just a matter of talking about releasing tension and having an awareness of the muscles in question, but I do think this is a big part of it. For example, if you have bad posture due to some acquired conditioning and chronic tension, then no amount of stretching and strengthening will deal with it. If a person has certain bad habits in place which cause problems the only way to deal with them is to become aware of the culprits and be able to control them. Tai chi if practiced correctly does this and more, more in the sense that it will also strengthen, adjust and change your body to be in a most efficient structure with minimal effort.

    Anyway, its near on impossible for me to describe all aspect of tai chi and their relation health. I do hope someone will perhaps try it out for themselves and make up their own mind , though of course as with anything that is worthwhile, much hard work is involved in this and in my experience most people will not have the strength to go through with it.
     

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