Neutralization (Hua Jin)

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by IMAS, Jun 11, 2013.

  1. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    I am collecting materials on neutralization or hua jin, any comments, articles and clips are welcome. Thank you in advance for your help.
  2. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    IMAS, you'll need to improve on this post please.

    What is your interest, what have you collected so far, what is your training/understanding of this etc.

    We're not here to do your collection for you, although we're quite happy to share information.
  3. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian


    Without knowing,

    a) what you already understand

    b) what you objective is

    It's hard to share ideas, because we don't know where you are, and what you're after.
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    "hua" is also sometimes translated as transforming.

    In taiji it does reference a methodology used to neutralize incoming force. But there are two uses of this term in IMA. One specifically a method found and trained in TCC the other a reference to a developmental stage of IMA practice.

    "hua" is written about as a stage of IMA and follows on from obvious "jin" and hidden "jin". This is usually and often described as transforming or mysterious "jin" rather than neutralizing in my experience. If I recall correctly it was a Xingyi master that first coined these terms in relation to 3 stages of development, it may have been Guo Yunshen, but I'm not 100% sure without checking.

    This is described by some as the highest level of fighting capability and strategy. One way to look at it is whatever the opponent throws at you, you have the ability to transform it to your advantage, akin to always being one step ahead.

    Now, which exactly do you want to research and discuss. Neutralizing ("hua") as a technique or method of dealing with incoming force or the broader "hua" which describes the stage of development that's referenced in IMA?
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013
  5. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Thank you for your comments. I am searching in Youtube and I saw the follow:

    Push hands Drills For Jiu jitsu-Judo-Shuai Jiao-Grappling
    by pcbd1 year ago1,768 views
    These sets of push hands drills are for sensitive, reflex, deflect, parry training that could be executed from standing, on knees, and ...

    But in facts, I am just looking for something very basic like someone grabs both of your upper arms and push that is all. The question of interest is just how to encounter it? People in Internal Martial Arts talk about neutralization and maybe someone like to share his or her thought on this. The hope is to collect a number of encounters.
  6. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Go and train in a real class. :bang:
  7. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    It is very good that you have pointed out that Guo Yunshen coined the term hua jin, as the concept of "Use four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds." only means deflecting.
  8. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Only if you read it at face value.
    More broadly, it can mean 'to use less force to counter/defeat a greater force'.

    You're asking how to neutralise an incoming push, where the point of contact is the opponents hands to your upper arms?

    The answer is in the classics, mate.

    "The secret lies at the waist"

    As has been mentioned, maybe you should join a class - then you'll learn this stuff first-hand.
  9. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That is how I'd read it at face value. In practise I'd say it means to use no force at all.

    Four ounces may overcome ten thousand ounces, but no ounces will overcome four ounces.

    Fair comment?
  10. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    In another thread I was looking at the lineage of Bruce Lee to Guo Yunshen regarding his idea of formlessness. And his idea of like water should from Dao De Jing Capter 8: The highest excellence is like (that of) water. The concept of be like water is also a kind of neutralization, sort of absorbing the incoming force in what ever intensity and direction.

    The Wing Chun three concepts of force are give up brute force, release incoming force and borrow incoming force. This can be demonstrated in Chi Sau, and this is also a kind of neutralization.
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    It can cover evasion as well in my opinion, and when you are talking about 'neutralizing' force without any force, you're in the realm of evasion. Where as the quote describes a smaller force off setting a larger one, which basically describes deflecting. Most MA understand and use deflection, though not too many put as great an emphasis on it as TCC, in theory or practice, to the point of specialization perhaps..
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    here you go, I posted this clip a while back, it talks about and demonstrates "hua" in tcc push hands practice(s).
  13. ned

    ned Valued Member

    I think these sort of discussions tend to get bogged down in conceptual interpretations
    which do little to help the understanding of the actual mechanics required -after all you
    you are not consciously applying a predetermined amount of force .In a practical training situation the relevant points are(imho) relaxation,timing and as Dan Bian points out,turning the waist.

  14. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That's (sort of) the point I was trying to make. We should be relaxing and trying to use no force at all. It isn't like we're comparing forces: "Well they're using ten ounces, so I can get away with nine!" or something like that. :D

    No force at all is a 'predetermined' amount only in as much as it is what we are aiming to achieve.
  15. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    From my observation of Taijiquan, rotation in the horizontal plane with the waist does not work without using brute force if someone is grabbing both of your upper arms and push. Actually you should use the circular motion of the torso in the sagittal or vertical plane.
  16. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

  17. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    If you mean the appropriate amount of "force" it's better to say that than "no force at all". Saying something along the lines of "we are trying to use no force/power at all" is misguidance as it's simply not true and gives a skewed impression. Given all the "no force" nonsense bandied around, some clarity on this is worthwhile I would think.

    No force will not off set any amount of force. The saying is merely an illustration of the principle: that you require a lesser force to off set a larger one. This makes obvious the redundancy of needing to use greater force.

    The actual amounts are not really an issue, as all these references (classic sayings) are meant as markers to guide practice, which illuminate a principle. they aren't literal instructions. For those you need teachers.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    as I explained they are referencing two distinct things, it seemed from your posts this is the one you were after.

    What were you hoping I got from Xingyi ?

    As for the stage of practice "hua", I told you my basic understanding of it. There really isn't much more I want to say, as It's been well written about and referenced.
  19. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Sorry, I don't follow you. When I said 'no force at all' that is exactly what I meant. I didn't mean 'only using a little bit of force', I meant using no force.

    Sorry if I didn't explain myself very well.
  20. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    But I thought you were talking about "4 oz deflects 1000 lbs" or IOW deflection.
    As I said you can evade a force without using any force against it, but how do you deflect a force using no force ?

    Sorry If I have misunderstood you Johnno

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