a little taiji tactical theory (clip)

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by cloudz, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWqcqibF4ts&feature=channel&list=UL"]Tai ji theory - YouTube[/ame]

    Nice demo of the basic taiji tactical cycle: ting, hua, na, fa (listening, neutralizing, siezing/contolling, issuing.)
    The other aspects of this 'cycle' that aren't gone into is how one can apply or translate these skills and tactics to a non contact start.

    Na and fa techniques comprise Chin na (na) and striking, wrestling iow all the offensive techniques can be used in the latter 2 stages of the cycle.
    Na on the other hand may not involve chinna and can be about siezing control in some way, such as taking their centre/balance away.(as shown in the clip)

    When beginning with a distance rather than from contact, listening is based on visual cues and reading the opponent in other ways than relying on the sense of touch. the second tactic of nuetralizing will then be based more on evasion techniques. Neutralizing from contact is really a type of evasion anyway.

    From this point the counter can begin. If the opponent has been put into a defective position through your enticing and evasion you might skip the siezing aspect and just hit the guy. However tcc is a very defensive and cautious art based around counter attack, so it's generally speaking safety first. If you can you want to make contact to control or sieze then 'finish' with an issue technique of some type.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
  2. embra

    embra Valued Member

    A few discussion points.

    Firstly, I am only now (after nearly 5 years) getting slightly more capable and chilled out in PH; with some degree of listening, waiting before countering (yielding) - and maybe critically, deceptive in transmitting intent.

    So in this clip, I think hua is yielding.

    Secondly, at a distance beyond contact, detecting rythym and change of intent come into the event cycle as you stated, but its more difficult to classify an event cycle around more sanshou, applications, moving step ph oriented training, rather than fixed step ph. There are a lot more tactics and goals at play.

    Some of the PH manoeuvre drills explore this a tad - but not enough for my liking - though 9 palace is always a new experience for me i.e. never dull.

    Small story. I often get bored with 7 stars drills and applications. In applications I often put in a 9 palace entry (to get to target area efficiently) immediately following a 7 stars evasion; and in 7 star stepping I sometimes change step immediately (if the opponent does not match my timing). Both receive big noises of "thats not Taichi etc".

    However, about 5 weeks ago, at the 2nd railway station in Edinburgh (Haymarket) this tactic got me right out of serious trouble.

    Haymerket's exit is currently very narrow (due to never ending roadworks) and 2 hardened thugs i.e. not just news/chavs - ex jailbirds with flattened noses blocked my exit - to rob me.

    In a half second's flash I 7 starred towards them, drawing them together - and thus opening a very small channel on the other side - which I immediately 9 palaces evaded into, to leave them cursing at thin air - so the deceptive and evasive tactic worked i.e. there ain't no rules written in stone about any of this - but it is all interesting. The alternative - 7 starring to the side would have been blocked by one of them, leaving the only option of going between them - which in narrow space would have most likely been a disaster.

    In my mind these aspects are better explored in TCC with applications than with anything else, but unfortunately I don't find many folk wanting to go into this very meaningfully.

    Thirdly, I may be down your neck of the woods at some point, so maybe we can give some of this a splash?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
  3. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yep, yield / neutralize are one and the same.

    Yes perhaps, but these four stages provide us with four broad categories as a general framework where I think these other tactics and goals can fit in. (more or less)
    Of course this fits around an 'ideal' of a typical 1 on 1 fair engagement rather than a framework that will take into account every possible self defence scenario.


    It depends what the outcome was of your change of step. Remembering this is just a drill which encapsulates a narrow set of movements. It doesn't mean that these movements can necessarily be a good fit to any kind of movement.

    changing step too quickly for example may mean laving a gap/ disconnect between yourself and partner. When in co operative tui shou the goal is to both no resist and not depart. You mention the opponent not matching your timing - but it is also your brief to match your opponents timing; to adhere, follow and continue..

    You have to keep in mind that these are isolated drills. There's nothing wrong with putting in nine palace footwork into a 7 star pattern, but you've departed from the seven star drill. As long as you have matched your opponent in other ways, that you havn't matched his technique as per the drill (IOW you have departed from the set drill), is neither here nor there. In of itslelf it's fine - particularly if you were to say allow free style application off of the platform of seven star push hands pattern.

    This is great and exactly what you need to do in unchorographed situation, use whatever techniques you need mixed and matched to fit the scenario.
    You took different bits of form/ technique (in this case stepping for evasion) and used them together.

    This is the goal of free sparring, unchoreographed training. however the fixed patterns and other modes of training you have done seem to have worked in ingraining the stepping, to the point where you were able to just do them 'in the moment', unchoreographed and as needed to match the situation for the desired outcome.

    Some aspects of the art are better focused on in one format or another. But the crux of it is to progress through, cover each aspect. The goal is to link /combine everything together as you reach more and more towards unchorographed sparring/ scenarios. Each thing will find it's place I believe

    I would welcome that very much, always nice to meet up with folks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
  4. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Recognising what is happening and what isn't happening in an objective manner, is always useful IMHO.

    What I am slowly waking up to (In my mind at least) is that evasion alone is not enough and other tactics are involved, most noticeably deception - but words don't always explain whats going on.

    In the drills, I would be using 7 stars as an evasion, 9 palace as an entry launched immediately of the weighting shift of the 7 stars evasion. Conversely, in the unpleasant scenario with the knuckle-draggers, 7 stars was used as a baiting deception - to lull them incorrectly into a momentary false sense of security, followed up by a 9 palace evasion.

    No hard and fast rules, and I am still scratching the surface of TCC.
     
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    One thing he fails to mention is that you must unbalance on contact THEN listen to the response and go with it. If you touch without unbalancing then you're in trouble because it can end up in a wrestling match. Never touch anyone while they are in balance, that way leads to a fair fight and nobody wants that.

    The Bear.
     
  6. embra

    embra Valued Member

    That's a fair point PB. However I often find that unbalancing on contact against someone who is skilled/powerful will not always work (more in PH than applications), and its sometimes better to bait the opponent a little (only half entering and disappearing), to find a good opening to unbalance him (which means closing a touch and releasing intent and position) with.

    In essence, maybe we need to listen all the time but in different ways according the the phase and context.

    In applications, its easier to unbalance/disrupt the opponent than in PH e.g. if the primary contact doesn't function e.g. upper body arm contact diversion/spiral/whatever, you can often double up with a low leg kick/trip - but then the primary contact is more of a baiting mechanism, and doubling contact is the killer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
  7. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Hi embra, there is a skill in tcc translated as enticing, what you describe as baiting deception seems to fit with what I currently understand about 'enticing'. i'll check and come back with the chinese word for ya.

    As I mentioned these four are just broad categories where other skills and techniques would be used. Amongst and between listening and neutralizing/evading there is the opportunity to entice the opponent.

    This isn't about hard and fast rules per se rather a framework that can guide aspects of our training. And training is there to get us to certain objectives. When anyone has to defend themselves for real, it comes down to what works for you in the circumstance. But we hope that our framework and training brings us to our objectives as close as we are able.

    It's a guide to bring us to an ideal, rather than a set of unbreakable rules. By trying to keep to certain guidelines withing certain training the hope is that the ideal will work and match our objectives.

    Your own story shows that it is possible, but at the same time we should all know and acknowledge situations will be different and things can and will go wrong with the ideal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Fair point Bear,

    I think it's also fair assumption that listening stays throughout any engagement, rather than being in stages/ a stage after or before x,y or z. You'll always be listening for changes from the opponent and in what he's doing, always. listening in regardsto this 'cycle' is a special case in that whilst it is at the beggining it is also always there.

    What i have read about this so called 'cycle' is that if at if at any point along it it breaks down you are asked to begin again. So if your nuetralizing doesn't work, you go back to just listening, if you get to seize control and it fails, you go back to just listen, and so on.

    Again I would draw a distinction with training protocal there and what you would do if your safety is on the line.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    This is very good point. To be kind to your opponent is to be cruel to yourself. Of course you can use your arms as insect's whiskers. The moment you tocuch your opponent, you should move as fast as you can to uproot your opponent.

    Here is one of my favor moves. When you start with this in Taiji push hand, you may confuse your opponent big time.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhho8FZ59So"]circular drag - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
  10. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I understand what you're saying but technically,no. Yielding is a component of neutralizing but hua/neutralizing isn't a component of yielding.You can't neutralize without some degree of yielding.You can yield without neutralizing-but you'd better have a good reason or you'll probably eat something.

    Not always.1st contact may be a distraction,or a disruption,or something to cause an unconscious/automatic body reaction back at you, all of which can then lead to a balance attack from the initial contact point or somewhere else. Not to mention that you may not be able to unbalance a specific individual on 1st contact.

    If you've unbalanced on 1st contact then your 1st contact is an attack in and of itself,which either was or then can become a push,strike,etc.Or again,you can attack somewhere else.

    And where's it written as an absolute that you must unbalance someone when you touch them? You could just touch,know,and hit 'em in the puss. That'll unbalance 'em!

    I'm not talking theory.These are all things from my experience,including (well,actually mostly) against folks from outside the TC sphere.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2012
  11. embra

    embra Valued Member

    This is more or less what I was getting at, expressed more explicitly. In applications, angular alignment provides the opportunity to unbalance on contact through a weak point. In fixed step PH where you are a lot more square on to each other, weak points exist to unbalance on contact but they are more difficult (for me at least) to exploit with unbalancing on contact, until a small angle opens up and/or one's timing and rythym is better than the opponent's to effect the contact unbalancing.

    Moving step PH opens up a bit more for finding weak spots - because you can move your blooming feet a lot more (one reason I find fixed step too restrictive - I dont like keeping my feet stationary), and its easier to create angles on the opponent to unbalance them, as you evade/yield their pushes and contact.

    My reflection on this is that its best to listen differently dependant on the contact made, and choose the timing of the unbalancing push with some care - so as to avoid over-extending oneself.

    If I get caught up in a wrestle, I do my best to slip out of it - sometimes works, sometimes not - its all elementary work in progress right now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2012
  12. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    @ Embra

    1st-nice real world footwork application you related.



    and now...

    I actually practiced very,very little "formula" walking ph training. Usually when my teachers and I did a lot of ph w/stepping we just freestyled it. My highest level teacher never mentioned having undergone formal walking ph. They also rarely used fixed position "formula" either,they did TONS of feeding drills and when they actually did ph they just "went for it",in his words. This was a line of CMC TC which concentrated on tourneys (fighting and ph) and challenge fighting.

    All the things I mentioned in the previous post are skills which developed directly from ph training.Except the face shot itself.

    " Firstly, I am only now (after nearly 5 years) getting slightly more capable and chilled out in PH; with some degree of listening, waiting before countering (yielding) - and maybe critically, deceptive in transmitting intent."

    " Moving step PH opens up a bit more for finding weak spots - because you can move your blooming feet a lot more (one reason I find fixed step too restrictive - I dont like keeping my feet stationary), and its easier to create angles on the opponent to unbalance them, as you evade/yield their pushes and contact."

    Sure,most people are more comfortable when stepping in ph. It's also much easier to make a lot more mistakes.It's very easy to capitalize on the mistakes folks make when walking if they don't have pretty decent skills already.Certainly agree it opens up more opportunity in finding weak spots-in them. That's the point of spending so much time in fixed position (of course eventually there's the occasional entering or follow-step) ph training.

    OK, I don't know how many hours you've spent in fixed position ph,I figure if it's taken you five years to chill out in it then either you're just having a very difficult time for whatever reasons or you don't spend at least several hours every week at it.I'm guessing the latter,but it could also be the training methods/approach.But the point is to become very comfortable in that venue with good skill development before walking. I don't want to seem constipated about this,so it's ok for folks to go ahead and have some fun walking,but I mean as a serious training method. In fact I'd opine that fixed (more or less) position ph is pretty adequate by itself as long as you're also doing a lot of sparring so that your skills manifest under pressure.



    One has to spend huge amounts of time in ph w/proper shen fa constantly being developed to consistently manifest the skills outside the venue of ph. Of course it helps a lot if you always end up being the training partner of your teachers.Sometimes there's an advantage in not being in a big city.

    At least until they leave.:(
     
  13. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Hey Doc;

    Walking ph drills:-
    There are a lot of them in Wudang TCC, and are generally used to develop mobility and manouvres in applications, empty hands and weapons, vs single and multiple opponents. The teaching and implementation of depends on teacher somewhat. Some consider 7 stars stepping the most fundamental aspect of TCC - but that is probably specific to the Wudang style of Cheng Tin Hung.

    I personally practice 7 stars stepping in the crowded streets almost sub-consciously now, evading oncoming pedestrians who become my unwitting 'opponents'.

    Me before TCC:-
    Before TCC I trained in Aikido for some years and when I started TCC I was also training in FMA - FMA and Aikido are both very angular - so evasion has always been a big part of my headset. For this reason, I go to some Bagua as well, but I have seen that Bagua is about a lot more than just evasion.

    The real-life encounter evasion:-
    It happened so quickly and instinctively that its difficult to be sure exactly what happened. The executed footwork is not strictly from the syllabus so to speak - BUT it has been developed kind of inspite-of/on-top of what is formally taught. The scenario is not normally taught i.e. opponents blocking you to pull you in, rather than attacking you - which is easier to evade in my mind.

    My Fixed step PH:-
    On average its about 3 hours a week. When I started TCC I used to use a lot of elbows, take folk over with me and generally just wrestle and scrap, semi playfully, but without any real listening skill. All has generally improved and softened out with better listening, but its very much a work in progress.

    Fixed step PH today:-
    About 30 mins with a big monster Dutch fellow who has 10 years of CMC before Wudang - he got the better of me, but only just. Then about 10 mins with a fellow who has 20 years Wudang and 5 years classic Yang experience behind him - who I haven't done PH with for a couple of years. I definately came off second best and included one particularly sharp pull diversion which produced a spectacular aeriel breakfall out of me, to which everyone had a bit of a laugh. The week before I had a 50-50 session with a similar fellow - so it all seems to depend on the day.

    Not being in the same place as your teacher:-
    As I travel a lot for work, this happens to me a lot. For this, in Hotel rooms I practice Neigung, handform and sometimes saber form (with a coathanger) and spear form(with a mop if I can find one.) Sometimes I chat through these aspects on skype with some teachers, with some limited degree of success.
     
  14. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I will try this sometime :)
     
  15. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Tactics of Qi Na

    One aspect of TCC and a lot of MA in general, that I find interesting is Qi NA or just simple locking.

    Locking on one joint usually does not work effectively i.e. its easy to slip out of.

    However, well aligned and timed double joint attacks against 2 or more joints, projected through the opponents centre-line really attack his central nervous system - internally - almost paralysing him.

    As if shutting a door being the most obvious example. In training this does require both parties to blend energies as wrestling/fighting could result in broken elbows.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIuTUCoYSBo"]As if Shutting a Door - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfMN4VzHzQQ"]As if Shutting a Door.MOV - YouTube[/ame]



    On receiving this technique, I try to go inside it to align myself to minimise the nerve paralysis from the concurrent joint attacks - thus it becomes a very internal movement of centre-line and energy alignment.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2012
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The principle Polar Bear is referring to is, "always unbalance on contact." Unbalance in the principle is a very broad term that can include distraction, stunning, taking balance, breaking posture, knocking out, etc. Anything that gives you the initiative and momentarily takes away the enemy's ability to counter attack you. IMHO, the root of the principle can come down to "do not trade blows" or how to avoid mutual slayings.

    For me, I like the posts but really like some of the things Cloudz is posting about listening. I've had to treat the ability to listen well as a fundamental skill set. Like if I'm talking all the time, I have a hard time listening to others. Part of learning to listen is to learn to shut up.

    Yielding to me is two main things. The first is emptiness (not giving anything for the opponent to work with and not giving away my true intentions). The second is having a strong shield that protects me. The shield to me is often the use of my elbows and forearms to engage the elbows of the opponent. Always protecting the center, high, and low lines.

    The rest to me is offense using suppleness to always make the opponent have to readjust their targeting, alignment for attack, and attacking at all times.

    IMHO.
     
  17. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    What rebel said.

    The Bear.
     
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yes I suppose it comes down to how you would strictly define these terms, in particular yield. I understood that yielding was spoken of as part of nuetralizing, but to be honest I don't really see them as being distinct activities. Technically though I'd like to know of any differences.

    What's this technical definition of yielding and what is the Chinese word ? from that we could figure out the technical difference.
    I kind of thought that yield was generally thought of as a poor translation of hua.

    The basic components of a nuetralizing movement are the shifting(of weight) and turning, either (or both together) can result in neutralizing no ?
    I don't know why (may have read it somewhere), but I have a nagging feeling that yeilding might technically refer to the shifting of weight to nuetralize - but that's just bit of a guess at this point. It may be that 'nuetralize' is the description of the outcome rather than the means. Another way of translating hua is transform.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  19. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    My teacher's wife often uses the word "rou" when referring to what we would call "yielding"."Rou" means soft so I imagine she is referring to taking away the point of contact through softening.
     
  20. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yes, I think most people when using the word are generally refering to a kind of 'soft' methodology. It's usually such a general use as you suggest rather than a very specific one as El Medico is suggesting. Which is why it's often particularly synonymous with "hua" or nuetralizing which uses soft methods to accomplish. Things like follow and adhere for example would come into it. I think generally it's used to describe the aggregate of such soft skills in tcc. though there may well be some other exceptions and precedents..

    I recently came across this, which states the word "rang" as meaning yield.

     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012

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