muay thai - silat

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Kertas, May 20, 2006.

  1. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Muay Thai = Simplified Silat

    Salaams all,

    As Muay Thai is simplified/Westernized silat in a ring using gloves, it is not fair to make a Muay Thai fighter fight a silat player. Even without weapons the silat player has the advantage of having his fingers. True, silat players don't normally train like gamblers' fighting-cocks till they bleed in pain like Muay Thai fighters do, but an average 8 hours a day silat player at the age of 72 would easily walk-over the average Muay Thai fighter twenty years his junior.

    Good silat is the best martial-arts possible, if anything is better, the good silat would absorb it and make it its own-lah. Having said this, good silat has been in dialogue and war with good Chinese, Japanese, Arab and Indian MAs for a long-long time. Silat is the original Mixed Martial Art and is also a philosophy.

    It is true.
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    err... and this uber deadly fantasy match up is taking place where?
    In your head? :rolleyes:

    Good... since you seem to know so much about it... I'll let you post something credible to that effect. I'm sure since you're the expert on this you'll know the Lumpini rankings of the Thai fighters involved... or perhaps their WMC rankings... or at the very least the camps and Khru's the the fighters have trained with/under.

    No doubt you can explain the rule set used in these bouts.

    Number of rounds?
    Round length?

    I've actually spent a fair bit of time in Yala - the province that Betong is in... would you mind letting me know where in Betong these matches are held? :confused:

    I'll wait... please post them. :rolleyes:

    You're attempt to be dismissive of Muay Thai only makes you look like you've got a sever inferiority complex. Referring to people that have the discipline to train as donkeys is pathetic and says more about your ability to communicate.. or actually lack thereof in a respectful manner.

    Wow... good to see your a spokesperson for Silat. :rolleyes:
    It's honestly the first time I've seen a Silat practitioner come across with such a dismissive attitude of another martial art.

    Err... so which is it?
    Just a few lines ago you were referring to deadly matches in which no Muay Thai fighter ever won... and now you're contradicting that by saying that you don't compete with brute force or aggression. I've yet to see a fight that didn't have aggression in it.

    So really which is it? :confused:

    Ok... so again I'm asking you to provide some proof or evidence of these uber deadly weapons skills against nak muays... you're the one who brought it up so the onus is on you to provide the proof. Credible citations, links, video clips.

    I'm really curious to see what you come up with. I'm sure others are as well.
    Please let us know.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2007
  3. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    And I'm sure you can actually back this up with something right?

    Seriously... you're living in a fantasy world.
    Nice... but it's only a fantasy. :D

    In fact... I found your post so ridiculous that I started a whole new thread with some questions for you in it. It's even got your name in the title:
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2007
  4. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    As some of you know, I had an extremely bad experience at a Silat school in Ann Arbor. I gave them a chance, and I gave them my money, and I got some funky looking Javanese dance moves in return. These statements reminds me of the insecure, macho posturing the instructors and senior students engaged in regarding Brazilian Jiujitsu. They quite often reminded me of how Silat was vastly superior to other martial arts, ESPECIALLY Brazilian Jiujitsu, and maybe tell some stories about how Silat masters could catch sword blades with their bare hands. Then we would do jurus for an hour with no explanation of application, or anything that I saw as really relating to fighting. It was the perfect example of "All bark, no bite."
    I'm really, really glad I went back to BJJ.
    If you want to convince people that Silat is the deadly master art you claim it is, show me something. I've heard Silat, Wing Chun, aikido, Ninjutsu, and who-knows-what-else practitioners make the same unsubstantiated claims about the deadly advantages of their styles over all others. It doesn't impress me any more.
    You talk about secret fights on the Thai/Malay border where Silat practitioners remain supreme, yet still unseen. We talked about a fight in the old pre-rules UFC where a Silat fighter got knocked unconscious on national television by a Muay Thai fighter. Who's claim is more dubious?
    This is a lot more confrontational than my usual postings, but I'm so sick of people trying to use silly conjectures to 'prove' the supremacy of their arts, and the tendency to attack fighting systems which have been tested in martial arts competitions (ie, Muay Thai, BJJ). Like I said, it's all bark, no bite.
  5. Khatami

    Khatami Valued Member

    Do you have any first-hand evidence and/or details of these fights in Betong? I would be interested to know whether the Malay fighters were using silat or Tomoi. The latter is the name which Muay Thai as practised by ethnic Malays is known. There is a lot of Tomoi practised in the Malay States bordering Thailand. Tomoi exponents are tough and practise in almost the same way as their Thai counterparts.

    Incidentally there was recently some kind of mixed martial arts event in KL and despite some silat exponents entering, I understand the majority of winners were MT exponents. I am aware that this was a sporting event but I would wager that the average MT practitioner in Thailand undergoes a lot tougher training than the average silat exponent in Malaysia. This is not to say that one art is superior to another.

    Sad to say there is a lot of what the Chinese call "mouth Gong Fu" in martial arts circles in Malaysia (I am sure there is in a lot of places) and I have personally experienced a number of cases where sometimes quite high-ranking silat exponents have said they would do this or that to a Thai boxer. In every case when put to the test IF they actually turned up they came something of a cropper. As a silat exponent I do not see this as demonstrating the weakness of my art, rather I see it as a sign that I should try to incorporate something of the spirit and attitude of Muay Thai training into my own practice.

    Best wishes
    Nigel Sutton
  6. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Nice posts slip and khatami,easy to see the experienced posters on here,you have both written my thoughts better than i could,thank you both. :)
  7. Pekir

    Pekir Valued Member

    Come on, are we serious martial arts practitioners?

    Either you choose to train 'martial arts' or you choose to train 'martial sports' and some people are convinced they can do both. When one chooses to train 'martial sports' of any kind one will be able to state how good (or not good) he is being a champion or not and on what level. If you choose to train 'martial arts' and therefor can not compete you can't or shouldn't claim anything. Just train hard and be satisfied. Someone elses perfomance isn't yours simply because every martial art is as good as its practitioner, nothing more nothing less. My teachers teachers may have been a killer (he wasn't) but this doesn't make me a killer.

    let's get serious now....

  8. SCP_Kensei


    Nice words. I wouldn't be so down on those who do both martial "Arts" and "Sports".

    I myself study several arts, but because I devote enough time to them I am not harming my progress in one by doing another.
  9. sulaiman

    sulaiman Valued Member

    Hi All,

    Well I have to say I am surprised at everyones surprise,

    a silat guy , on a silat forum who thinks Silat is better as a combat art than Muay Thai !!

    Of course I think Silat is better, that is why I train it and not Muay Thai
    ( that and the fact that I just wouldnt feel good in the shorts ! :)

    Slipthejab, Real life is not " official ", it does not have a certificate to prove you participated.

    I am not dismissive of Muay thai, although personally no, I dont like it.

    Donkeys kick , men kick ,
    donkeys kick better.
    I've yet to see a donkey that can pick up a sword convincingly, therefore...

    quote You're attempt to be dismissive of Muay Thai only makes you look like you've got a sever inferiority complex. Referring to people that have the discipline to train as donkeys is pathetic and says more about your ability to communicate.. or actually lack thereof in a respectful manner.

    My friend, nowhere did I dismiss the discipline to train, as silat practitioners , we will be training well into our old age...unlike Thai Boxers.

    quote Wow... good to see your a spokesperson for Silat. :rolleyes:
    It's honestly the first time I've seen a Silat practitioner come across with such a dismissive attitude of another martial art

    I dont think I set myself up as anything other than a spokesman for myself, and on that level , I will say what I think.

    This is not the "official " ,written in stone, World Annals of Martial Arts Encyclopedia, its an internet dicussion forum between a buch of blokes who like martial arts.. Lighten up .. :Angel:

    quote Err... so which is it?
    Just a few lines ago you were referring to deadly matches in which no Muay Thai fighter ever won... and now you're contradicting that by saying that you don't compete with brute force or aggression. I've yet to see a fight that didn't have aggression in it.

    What I said was that we do not rely on brute force or aggression, we have other tools.
    In Silat melayu , we always train against larger stronger partners whenever possible.
    In practise we assume the opponent is stronger, this means we dont rely on overwhelming with muscle power.
    Hope this clears your confusion

    quote Ok... so again I'm asking you to provide some proof or evidence of these uber deadly weapons skills against nak muays... you're the one who brought it up so the onus is on you to provide the proof. Credible citations, links, video clips.

    I'm really curious to see what you come up with. I'm sure others are as well.
    Please let us know.

    Sorry , we both know you would dismiss any evidence and its really not the point anyway.
    You are being naive to presume there was any such thing as judges and certificates.

    If you dont know about something,it doesnt mean it doesnt exist !

    I myself have more than enough evidence for the uber deadly weapons skills of my teachers, and that is enough for me, and no ,it wasnt written in any books, or posted on you tube, neither do they have any certificates or rankings to prove it... only their lives..

    Adios Amigos
  10. Khatami

    Khatami Valued Member

    Hi Sulaiman,
    Do you have any more details of these fights in Betong? I have been asking around here and no one has heard of any such fights.
    I must admit when I mentioned this story to Guru Zainal his reaction was more extreme than I was expecting. He made the strong point that he has never come across a genuine case of a silat fighter beating a Muay Thai fighter in an unarmed encounter. The fact that he has trained in and teaches both "classic" Muay Thai and several systems of silat makes his view one with authority. A further point he made was that in the Malaysian silat world such stories are all too common but there is seldom any evidence of their truth. He strongly feels that such stories do not do us silat exponents any favours. We have to stick to what is Truth. The reality is that in an unarmed encounter between the average silat exponent and a practitioner of Muay Thai the silat exponent would be at a severe disadvantage. This is not, as I have stated before, because the art is somehow deficient but because of comparative fighting experience and levels of conditioning.
    I agree entirely that the silat exponent should be well-versed in weapons usage but do not think that a Muay Thai exponent would not also be trained in weapons. If we are talking about an exponent of one of the many styles of village or classical Muay Thai then the weapons and skills of Krabi Krabong might well also be a part of their training.
    Furthermore it is erroneous to suppose that the skills of Muay Thai may not be practised into old age. Again if we are talking about village styles then there are many old veterans who continue their practice throughout their lives.
    Once again I must state that I think silat is an excellent martial art as is Muay Thai, and as indeed are all martial arts. If we want our art to improve rather than considering who would kill who in a fantasy fight, we should surely, be looking at the strengths of each system and how we can learn from them.
    Here on Penang there are many styles of silat, perhaps one of the most fearsome being Siku Duabelas. Yet even the masters of this style acknowledge that Muay Thai fighters are to be respected.
    I would like to extend a sincere invitation to anyone interested in the comparative merits of different styles of silat and Muay Thai to visit us here in Penang. We are hospitable folk and there is no shortage of training oportunities.
    Best wishes
    Nigel Sutton
  11. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Well put.
    Finally the voice of reason from the Silat side.

    I'd like to make it abundantly clear to the Silat community here at MAP that I don't have an issue with Silat per se... but I do take exception when people start posting unsubstantiated fantasies about uber deadly battles between Silat practitioners and nak muays.

    Not only are they divisive to the practitioners of different MA's here at MAP but they also do a massive disservice to Silat as well... reducing it to about as much phony relevance as chop socky Kung Fu exploitation films.
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Thinking one is better to train in as a matter of personal preference I take really no issue with. It's everyone's perogative to train in what they will. I've never suggested it be anything other than that.

    Again what I take exception with is unsubstantiated stories and rubbish posts by people who a very limited understanding of Muay Thai. Generally posted along the themes of 'our art is uber deadly... we even defeat nak muays' :rolleyes:

    If you post something then you should be able to substantiate it with citations or credible evidence to that effect. If not... don't be surprised when someone calls you on it and it turns out to be sheer fantasy.

    No one said you had to. Comparing people who train in martial arts that kick to donkeys is being dismissive. In just about any culture comparing someone to a donkey would be considered offensive.

    Either you don't understand that or you need to work on you communication skills... or both.

    1) see my response above

    2) you do realize you're not fooling anyone with your strawman argument right?

    Again... you're attempting to take a swipe at nak muays by stating that Silat practitioners will be training into old age where as nak muays won't. This is patent rubbish... of course nak muays won't be training at the same level in laters years that they would have when they were younger... but then again... I don't recall anyone ever stating that. So again... you're setting up a classic strawman argument... something that is easy for you to knock down. But... no one is arguing what you've made people out to be saying.

    I'd have to say it's infinitely easier to be training Silat into old age as the level of physical exertion never meets the same levels that nak muays train at in their competitive days. If it does... then surely you can provide some examples. Please do... it'll be interesting to see if you can.

    In addition to that... nak muays do train into their later years... who do you think runs the the training camps? Who do you think the Khru's are Fairtex, Jocky, Sidyotong and other famous camps in Thailand.

    Apidej Sitharun and Orono Por Muangubol are two nak muays well past their fighting prime who still train and teach. Do they train at the level they did when they were 17... obviously not... but no one from any art trains at the same intesity level in their later years as they did when they were in their early years.

    What you're trying to argue is patently absurd.

    I'm sure othe Silat practitioners are thankful of that.

    It's nice when people can post accurate and logical insights into their arts. When they post erroneous information backed up only by a ill informed understandings of arts they obviously have very little experience in... then it's not really that great for anyone here at MAP.

    Umm no.
    I'm more than willing to look at any credible evidence that you're willing to put up. Whether or not it's worthy of being considered credible is based soley upon the merits (or lack thereof) of what you present.

    So far for all the grandiose claims you and Kiai Carita (brum) have made I've yet to see one iota to back any of it up. Based on what you've posted so far in regards to Muay Thai and nak muays it's readily apparent that you have a very limited understanding or exposure to Muay Thai.

    So really... please post some credible evidence to back up what you're asserting. Kiai Carita (brum) has already shown that he's not able to back up what he says and he even refused to respond after he was called out about the validity of what he posted...


    Becuase he's knows he couldn't back up what he said. He was quite simply talking out of his ass. Fantastic imagination... little hard evidence. I'm not surprised.

    Again - I don't doubt there are highly skilled Silat practitioners and teachers out there. As to how many of them have ever had any sort of bout with a nak muay... I'd be willing to bet it's a miniscule number. The whole comparison of nak muays to Silat practitioners is pointless from the get go... but it reaches greater levels of stupidity when people like Kiai Carita (brum) come on and start posting uber deadly kung fu style fantasies about fights that never happened.

    Next time you discount someones style or chosen martial art... try to actually understand something about it. From you're posts it's obvious you don't have the faintest clue about Muay Thai. :rolleyes:
  13. Pekir

    Pekir Valued Member


    Wasn't meant to be 'down' on those who do both martial 'arts' and 'sports' My personal opinion may be in that direction but that has no bearing on what I meant to say in my previous post.

    On top of this 'art' versus 'sports' are in my modest opinion not the same as practicing different martial 'arts' or 'sports'.

  14. Pekir

    Pekir Valued Member


    To be honest these talks about "silat being the better/deadliest martial art etcetera" are in the long run damaging for the art. I've seen advertisement for certain silat schools with this tone on the internet and in magazines over the last ten years and they are dissapointing to say the least.

    It might be a consequence of commercial activities in the silat community but as a marketing professional I can tell you it is stupid even then. Never sell propositions you can't make stick, they will hit you in the face some time soon. In the Netherlands silat has been around since the early 1950's and some of the early exponents claimed out loud all kinds of unbeatable and invinceable stuff. In those days probably "one eye was king". To this day there still are (older) martial artist of other arts who have a certain kind of grudge towards the silat community because of the uncalled for 'big mouth'. This is probably not a selective silat problem but probably a problem any martial art have to deal with. But since I practice silat it 'hurts' my ears to hear this stuff.....

  15. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I agree with you completely.
    I think you are probably in the majority actually... and thankfully. I don't think that most involved in Silat are towing some absurd Uber Deadly line to be honest. This is exactly why I think it's important to point out in threads such as this just how silly such claims are. As I've stated so many times in this thread... I'm more than willing to look at credible evidence and such... but frankly I don't expect any of the exponents of the Uber Deadly approach to provide any.

    The whole Uber Deadly thing does reek of insecurity and/or snake oil sales pitch. Neither of which I'm sure the vast majority of the Silat community agree with or are victim to.
  16. sulaiman

    sulaiman Valued Member

    Hi guys,

    Wow, we really seem to be missing each others point here.
    If you read my original post you will see that I ( rightfully ) stated that it is fruitless to compare silat & muay thai ,
    I reiterate again.., they are different categories of art.
    One is a sport , the other is still , despite the attempts of many to the contrary , not.
    All agreed so far ?

    I then commented that the essential advantage that silat possesses over Muay Thai is the use of weapons.
    In my book a weapon is the great equalizer of force.

    Have you ever seen a bull fight ?
    Sure the bull is big & mean, super strong and aggressive, with raw instinctual power and bloody great horns to gore with.
    Add to that his charge and sheer presence and you have a formidable foe.
    True enough, occasionally some people get gored, horribly.
    But 9 times out of 10 , that puny little man , dressed in weird yellow spandex and waving a red blanket gets that bull.
    How , weapons and skill my friends.

  17. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Is this acceptable behaviour?

    Warm salaams, to all but Slipthebag - to you, no salaams. You are a rude warmongering bully who spreads falsehoods for amusement. I pray may Allah keep His Curse you until you change your ways!

    Silpthebag, you know that I don't think your thoughts are of any importance to make it useful for one to respond to - I told you that in a PM, which, uncivilizedly you posted up somewhere- but though they are not at all important and neither are they interesting, they are annoying because they are full of sh*t. I would just like to point out to people who you are trying to impress, that the words UBER DEADLY are from YOU and not from any silat practitioner in this thread.

    As for who you are and what your intentions are, I would like to point out the RUDE and DISRESPECTFUL thread you began about Cimande Macan Guling recently. Also let the community consider the way you hijacked this thread and made it as you were defending commonsense against silat people who were saying their art was UBER DEADLY - which are YOUR WORDS. There are many indications that suggest a deep relationship between silat and Muai Thai (you CAN spell it that way, Slipthebag, -remeber swiping Sulaiman for spelling it Muai Thai? - it is JUST as correct as YOURS: there is no ONE way to transliterate Thai)

    Dedicating a thread to ridicule me and a post I made, demanding I give you proof about a hypothetical opinion, attacking Sulaiman with your childish jabs, using derrogative language to abuse an Indonesian silat player on Youtube (the Cimande Macan Guling player Gorka filmed) is probably a way you get your kicks. You are a keyboard warrior, or is Mas Tris' words: wet pu*sy. A mature human would not conduct himself like you do.

    I would like to alert the moderators on the conduct of this man in this thread, the thread on Cimande Macan Guling and also on the thread set up specifically to attack me, which also makes a PM public - that is very uncivilized. Is this what the MAP is about?

    As a person, I would fight 10 keyboardwarriors like Slipthebags any day, anywhere, anytime.

    Warm salaams to all,
    and curses to those who deserve them,
    like Slipthebags and other wet pus*y.

  18. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    Isn't it SliptheJAB?
  19. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter


    So.... for someone who didn't think my thoughts were important enough to repsond to you sure came back in to try and save face. But your a bit late.
    People are on to you.

    Bram, you are a fake a fraud and a phony. You're stories are total fantasy BS and you're not big enough to back them up with anything credible or substantial. You've ducked and dodged direct questions put to you about what you've posted and failed time and time again to back them up with anything credible.

    As far as I'm concerned your name isn't Kiai Carita or Bram... it's mud.
    You've got your panties in a knot because someone called you on your silly Kung-Fu style fantasy stories about Uber Deadly Silat.

    Wake up dude.
    Go cry your eyes out to the MODs all you want.
    If you can't back up what you post when asked I don't expect the MODs to jump in and mollycoddle your silly ass. If you had enough confidence in your version of events you'd have no reason to not post and let us know all about these Uber Deadly Silat vs. Muay Thai matches that you say have happened. But nope... that never happened... funny that. :D

    You also were unable to post anything credible to back up your story about the wise old men of Silat being able to outfight nak muays who are in their prime. :D

    Sorry but despite all your bluster and late hyperbole we see your posts for what they truly are... BS.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2007
  20. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Khatami,could you pm me please? ive tried to send you a pm(ref training in penang) to no avail,thanks :)

Share This Page