Is Ninjutsu Really Effective?2

How common is death from blunt trauma to the groin from a punch or kick compared to brain damage from hitting the pavement after being punched in the head?

 

Well I don't have any data on that. However, the risks go up with repeated strikes.

If the person is knocked out for the count, repeated more strikes to the head seem less likely since the threat is gone. At that point there might be strikes of opportunity, such as kicks to the head. Those kicks to the head of an unconscious person I think are very dangerous. With that said, the single punch to the head makes sense would be statistically less dangerous than repeated kicks to the head.

The danger with groin kicks also makes sense that it increases with repeated kicks to the groin. If you use the rising power kick to the groin, the opponent might just keep fighting... then that means you might repeatedly kick them harder in the groin. This is very dangerous.

For the damage, there are some points made in this older MAP thread: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98567

 

Who's going to stand there and take another hit to the balls?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAg1r6zw7Bg"]Ow My Balls! - YouTube[/ame]

Blunt injury to the pelvis can be dangerous, but do you think a hard kick to the pelvis is as dangerous as a hard kick to the chest or spine?

There are quite a number of people who die from TBI after only receiving one punch to the head each year. I'm finding it hard to find any data on how many people die form being kicked in the groin each year.

Any time you engage in violence there is the potential to do great harm to your opponent. I'm just not seeing the risks of kicking someone in the groin as being at all equivalent to punching them in the head.

 

I don't disagree that they can be effective, just that the groin is a good distraction or setup, not a primary target unless you can get it in as a pre-emptive strike before the adrenaline is really flowing (even then, it would have to be a very well set up strike). Also, on people who are used to protecting their groin, it is a difficult strike to set up.

I agree on the shin strike too. It's the most effective in my experience, because if you can get the whole shin up there, there's no way you're just going to skim the target - everything's getting squashed.

As Ero said earlier, the perineum is a very painful target. More shocking to the body, I would say. Also the pubis sends shock down to the family jewels, and is a more valuable structural target in term of potential bone damage and in the way it can affect your opponent's mobility.

 

Also, I'm interested in people's experiences with boxes/cups, because although I can see the wisdom of them where high-speed projectiles are in use like hockey, cricket and baseball, they look like they would distribute the force of an upward strike to all the places you want it least:

 

David, you seem to going in the opposite direction from the information I was presenting.

First about cups. They do not provide very good protection against upward groin strikes. They are designed for the front on strikes better. So if the point is to train with groin strikes, why train upward groin kicks in sparring that you don't have proper protection against?

Second, an upward groin kick/shin doesn't reliably stop an opponent. It is the kick that potentially is more dangerous as long term effects or death compared to the front on groin kick. So the opponent might fight on, but later end up with permanent damage. There is even the experience of many men that a LIGHTER upward groin kick had more effect than a harder upward groin kick, so the whole point of kicking harder for more immediate effect doesn't even match up with many experiences from males who have been kicked in the groin with an upward groin strike (kick or knee).

The front on groin/small intestines kick can have a small push at the end that drives the opponent's hips back, causing them to lean forward and break posture. This is much more reliable at stopping an opponent because not only can it stun, but it breaks posture.

I've had a few women tell me they kicked men in the groin with no results. I always go back to what technique they used. It was always the upward kick or shin to the groin in real fights. I teach them the front on groin kick, which they can test out in sparring with immediate results. I can't say, however, that any of these women have come back to me and confirmed in a real fight that the front on groin strike works.

And the dismissive tone about multiple strikes being more dangerous is mind boggling. Repeated strikes over time are very real danger because the body does not have the proper time to recover. Is it one thrust from a knife or multiple thrusts that is more likely to kill? Is it one punch to the head or multiple strikes to the head that is more likely to cause brain damage? One kick to the groin or multiple?

Is someone going to stand there and take multiple strikes to the groin? Less likely if it is a front on strike because the hips move away. On a upward strike, the opponent's legs tend to separate (wider base) however, leaving more opportunity for repeated kicks... even in one of dunc's videos where it is more like sparring, he is showing the kick to the target and does the kick multiple times in a row as his training partner has legs spread wide.

And the danger of multiple strikes of opportunity when on the ground should not be ignored. When on the ground, you might get kicked in the head, ribs, and groin multiple times by standing opponents.

 

How so?

Yes, more of a flicking motion, with either hands or feet, is best at getting that "twinge" reaction. However, I have found that a proper squash is better for actually dropping someone. Your mileage may vary.

Yes, as I said above, a front kick to anywhere on the pelvic girdle is, in my estimation, more reliable than kicking upwards to the genitals.

Yes, but there are also times when men drop like a sack of spuds when hit in the testicles. Just like plenty of people have smacked someone on the jaw to no effect. I agree with your general advice though.

You're ignoring the context of scaling back force, which is where this sidetrack began. If you're trying not to damage someone too much, why would you start stomping on their crotch when they're down?

Also, bottom line is, if I had to choose between someone playing football with my head or my gonads while I'm down, I'll take it in the happy sacks every time.

 

It's quite easy to train both groins strikes and fingers in the eyes. We do it all the time.

 

Based on your reply to my post, I probably didn't understand your previous posts intent.

My main point is consistent results. One can use techniques that have inconsistent results, but they need to have something with consistent results to back those up.

It's like a life preserver story I use to students. If you dive off a platform into the water, the life preserver will not keep your head from going under water from the force of the dive. However, it will consistently help you float. If a groin kick is in your tool box as a life preserver, it better have consistent results you can count on. And by consistent I don't mean the results are only ever one, but that you know the two or three most likely results will happen consistently so you can prepare and build off of those.

Okay, we agree.

Um, yeah. See a lot of folks first hand in our fight nights get punched and kicked, but a knee to the groin (low blow) effects them good. Also of note, I haven't been formally keeping track, but knockouts from kicks to the head I'm pretty sure out number the knockouts from punches to the head. Not really making a point, just conveying my experiences from judging fights.

Scale back force is not really a option unless you train strikes to scale back force. I've kicked folks in the groin and it didn't feel like I kicked them hard, but they have gone down. One friend of mine went down for several minutes and I didn't even realize my kick had connected with him. Afterwards he told me what had happened. It was just my basic front on groin/small intestine kick the same as I train it. There was adrenaline as I was concerned about multiple attackers (this was six on six sparring).

Point is that you hit under stress pretty much the same all the time. You want to train the power that you really want to use in a fight. If I have to hold back from hurting someone, I use a different technique than one that I train to really hurt someone. I don't like to scale back the same technique that is meant to hurt someone with the exception of emergencies where something unexpected happens and I have to scale back.

I don't like either.

 

I never wear them. I think they are more trouble than they are worth what with the constant readjustments. I'm also scared of guillotining a testicle/cord.

Personally I've never been to bothered by the occasion knee on gonads or nut shot as they don't happen often and most of the time you can just shrug it off.

That pic is gold btw

 

Slightly tangential but I saw some Russian mentalists tanto fighting on YouTube yesterday... Guy lost an eye. I think your approach sounds responsible and sensible.

Equipment wise, when I used to train in a southern Chinese system we would wear goggles (type you get at BnQ) to protect our eyes during vital point drilling

 

That's an interesting observation as I've never had any problem carrying on training despite front on groin attacks but upward movements that are more likely to disturb the testicles are the ones that commonly see people incapacitated in training in my classes and seminars.

Unless you are hitting hard enough to perforate a full bladder, generally it is the testicle movers that are going to incapacitate. How effective any strikes are depend on the accessibility (angle, type of clothing/underwear) and size of the target. You know how it is, you can take a knock (upwards or straight) to the groin without blinking, and then you sit down and cross your legs and roll a testicle by mistake and experience agony.

I personally don't wear a box because any redirected force will impact on a transplanted organ and I place a higher value on that than my testicles.

 

Thumb strikes were so-so. Situational I'd say. Basically I'd have to fight with them to sew if they worked. You also have to bear in mind that if you hit too hard with them you'll break your thumb.

 

My own personal approach is that until I can easily do pushups on a surface, I wouldn't do any serious contact training with them.

 

I believe Rebel Wado is talking about the pubis/ileum area, rather than actually hitting the genitals front-on.

I've found that a relatively hard strike to that area, especially with a hard striking surface like a knee, can make the testicles hurt just as much, if not more, than striking them directly. In my experience you get more of that horrible nausea when attacking just above the genitals, when the pain and discomfort moves down, than when you attack the genitals and the pain and discomfort moves up into the lower abdomen. I think it also affects mobility more, though I'm not about to take endless groin shots to test that theory

Like you say though, it can seem a bit random as to the severity of the strike and the severity of the effect.

 

Yeah, the other thing is adrenaline and gross motor skills. As soon as things kick off I would struggle to put my thumbs anywhere. So I'd have to use a technique like that pre-fight.

I've even tried shadow boxing and then picking up objects. It is WAAAY harder than the movies make out.