I presume you actually meant to say "...is a form of Bushido" However; BUSHIDO isn't actually a style of martial art which is what your suggesting. Whilst it is right to associate Bushido very closely with the study of martial ways, it more accurately refers to the PEOPLE involved in the arts and how they behaved rather than, a specific martial style. "BUSHI". Bushido is a set of moralistic and ethical codes which were established over a protracted time and were generally associated with the various samurai classes of feudal Japan. Firstly your statement is somewhat flawed, we (the people who choose to study BUDO today) have a multitude of legitimate reasons for doing so - least of all because we have to as a means of combat survival, unlike the days where being involved in civil war was common place. Secondly and again connected to what exists today in Japan; is a clear indication of what actually worked in the combative arena. It’s a process called evolution. Schools of Bujutsu which were less effective than others simply and eventually ended as their students died during combative encounters. Those styles which had strong technique and strategy way back then survive to this day however; what was **appropriate** in terms of effectiveness and range/scope of techniques in fuedal times does not always or directly correlate to us today thus, what you say about "the only true form or style" is in my opinion a very narrow sighted opinion, there is no such thing as an 'ultimate all encompassing martial art'. Also there is a big (and often overlooked) difference between the study of tradition (warts and all in a "modern" context) and the application of practicality, the two are very often polls apart. Remember, what we may call traditional BUDO now was just the way it was when the systems were actually being employed in feudal times. Anyone who grasps the concept of Bushido which is rooted in the national traditions influenced by Zen and Confucianism, will easily see the similarities in the struggle between the study of tradition vs. study of practicality in the same system, and then; comparing that with the ethical aspect of loyalty to one's master or family. Both are important however, sometimes it's just impossible to have them together at the same time. You of course mean "SAMURAI" Your sentence doesn’t make sense. You of course mean "AIKIDO" Believe me; when I say we as people who actually study the various styles of Aikido know EXACTLY where Aikido is weak and where it is strong, more importantly, you approach this discussion from one simplistic stance... That we learn to FIGHT when actually, this is not what many people really want from their study (rightly or wrongly that's THIER choice) you should not judge them based solely on your opinions of what Aikido (or BUDO) is or isn't. And thus you show your lack of understanding for our art and the people who take it seriously enough to spend decades learning it. What are you trying to tell us ? Please consider for a moment how foolish you look when you post in the AIKIDO forum and tell students of the art how they apply themselves. Ah, I see; your Sensei is a "Grandmaster Professor 10th dan" of his own system with connections to Soke Councils which tends to explain a couple of things IMO. Off topic but... Whatever happened to a plain crisp white gi and black belt? Okis I'm off for a big mac's Regards
ManabiMashoMan: I'm glad you have reminded us that street fighting may involve opponents who are frenzied or non-compliant. As your style appplies them, please tell me how 'sacrificemoves' would be used by a Samurai, or anyone else, as a 'takedown', perhaps on such a streetfighter. (I'm confused, as we use the two terms to mean very different techniques.) The thread is about how hard Aikido is to learn. In comparison with 60 years of experience to reach 10th Dan, O Sensei's reported claim of 10 years to learn the basics would seem almost modest. The website was most interesting. In order to do full justice to the founder of this new 'Japanese' art, it would be useful to see where he gained his Japanese experience and when, which lineage masters he followed, which University awarded his degree etc. and how many of his 60 years of MA experience was spent doing what? This seems to be missing and I'm sure would add greatly to the impact of this man's unique story. I'm not being critical, but the site leaves him open to many questions: I have many qualifications myself which are from UK universities, but I am also a bona fide Reverend of the Universal Life Church - 10 minutes on the Internet and I can wear a dog collar in the UK and flash my new found credentials at anyone (I don't! But there are 'exorcists' and 'spiritual advisers' in the UK who do!). In the same way, it's pretty easy to have any grade you want in any MA you choose - especially if it's your own system. As to MA experience, if I count my Judo lessons from the age of 8, I can claim 43 years myself - but I'd hardly call kids Judo a sound basis for claiming mastery of an entirely different art. Fancy awards and diplomas are again only as credible as the organisation which awards them - my local Indian restaurant has many awesome Diplomas which show beyond doubt that it has invested a lot of money in getting approval from a large number of bodies, but prove nothing about the quality of the food. They join, they pay, they get a Diploma for the wall. I would certainly need to know more about the instructor before signing up for a class which offers such deadly techniques.
Not enough alcohol and too much spare time to contemplate how much easier Aikido would have been to learn had I followed the 'Bullshido Rap': 'Wanna know how to get the Master grade? The man gotta have it so he went out and paid. Got my Dips and Certs in frames on my walls, Just to prove I ain't got no real balls!' Please feel free to add any verses before this one gets 'moderated'!!
Oh man... thanks for the belly laugh mate... I needed a perkup... Been at work since 6 this morning and I have to say I laughed my socks off at that. <wipes the tears from me eyes> Regards
Ok, I've just spent some time on the following website, this is lifted from their rather enlightening Aikido page, don't be drinking when you read this otherwise you might find yourself having to clean your monitor. I've highlighted the bits I liked the most, any grammatical errors are "as is" from the source. http://www.manabimasho.com/Aikido.html What is Aikido you may ask, you may have seen movies with Aikido in them, or read a few books about warriors that knew it. But here I put aside all the Hollywood mumbo jumbo and will give you a clear explaination of Aikido. Aikido is more of a philosphy and spiritual teachings then it is self defense in reality. Aikido teaches the student to learn to meditate, and become at peace in all situations, giving away to most feelings but embracing the feeling and ideas of Love above all things. So much so that often times when in dangerous situations a practicioner of Aikido would rather not defend them selves because they worry for the health and safety of the would be attacker. The Aikido system sounds like a Monks training right....well technicaly it is. Aikido masters would rather show thier Ki and what they can do rather then showing off thier physical and martial arts skills. The reason behind this is because Aikido teaches Family love to all, and the quickest way to get a stranger to pay attention to you is make a huge example, and by showing a demonstration of a Ki master is showing they have authority and are not a fool who claims such knowledge. The strangers usually are caught up in the excitment and wish to learn for selfish reasons mostly, but as they progress they lose all selfish emotions and feelings, and learn to become a spiritual leader of the world, They often speak out against violence, and war, and always encourage helping others, and showing kidness and love. While you can learn how to perfect your mind and soul in Aikido it is very unwise to go on such missions of love and respect unarmed. The world will sometimes spit down on you, and although a true Aikido Student or Master will smile back and only give out emotions and feelings of peace and love, often times such events are dangerous to the body of the Aikido practicioner. So there is the teachings of universal balance, and harmony in another way; that way is Self Defense. Here endeth the lesson on Aikido. - Where do I sign up ? Post Script I apologise genuinely and sincerely for any signs of sarcasm, I have a weakness of character which the study of Budo has been unable to strengthen... And that is I can't help myself when I read this kind of rubbish.
What's wrong with that? Seems fine to me - as a potential spiritual leader of the world I'm obviously studying the right art! Amazing - the capacity for egomania is only matched by the droves of the gullible willing to swallow this stuff. Next thing you know George Bush will be setting up a dojo with a Diploma in Self Defence awarded by Tony Blair!
AIKIDO is hard to learn, in it's own right and compared to a lot of striking and grappling arts,seems to get harder the further you get as well.The initial joy of feeling it work has been replaced with a dogmattic struggle to come to grips with even the basics.I put it down to the fact that I now concentrate instead of letting it flow.It does take longer to learn in comparrison to many striking and grappling arts and this is reflected in the grading.The thing with AIKIDO is you have to be relaxed to make it work and this can be difficult with a seven foot tall 300lb man mountain coming at you,it takes a lot of maturity and courage not to mention a high degree of skill.At the moment I use AIKIDO to improve my balance,footwork and posture and also to give me a deeper meaning to the arts,not that I wont try some of the restraining or projectile techniques.However at top level AIKIDOKA are expected to perform techniques against up to six opponents all coming in with various strikes at the same time.Iv'e seen my sensei do some amazing things with little or no effort(he's been learning for 30 years) and I have no doubt he could use it effectivly on the street,in the ring or wherever else he had to.
It's news to me as well. I don't consider 3rd dan as being particuarly high and I had to deal with eight attackers
Different styles and associations have different syllabus so this multiple attack of six to eight attackers is not a requirement for all associations, although I would think that the attackers would have to be complient. Going onto the grading systems, some budo systems who use the menkyo system still use a black obi at passing the first level so there should be no problem with insurance. Most insurance company's are more interested in what teaching qualifications you have and are you fit to teach. Although I am a member of the BAB and hold a coach award from them I also use MASTARR for coaching their coaching programme also teaches HSE first aid, CIEH health & safety, Child protection. Once qualified these qualification are renewed every three years. I use the Kyu Dan system, at Junior level we use a 5 kyu system with 3 mons red tabs within each kyu grade. Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Brown. Note Juniors can't hold a Dan grade untill 16 years of age. Adult we have an 8 kyu level Yellow, Orange, Orange red tab, Green, Green red tab, Blue, Blue red tab, Brown. Dan grades are technical upto and including Godan (5th Dan) I think that with children, they need to have goals so this system works very well for us. The kyu dan ranking system was popularized by Kano. Ueshiba started out using the Menkyo system and in around 1940 introduced the kyu Dan ranking system.
I was being a touch sarcastic. But you do make a valid point. One I made in this thread all about grading systems. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37556 Lets try not to get threads confused.
At the highest level Aikido impresses hugely with its ability to deal with multiple attacks and is excellent evidence that perseverance in training pays off. However, the most I've seen in my style (Shudokan) is a 5 man attack at a fast pace, armed with (I think from memory) katana, jo, baseball bat , chain, tanto. This was a DEMO! My Sensei would also allow five of us (heavy blokes) to hold his arms and neck and, however hard we tried, could throw us off like lightweight kids. Again - he did have decades of training and a good lineage behind him. Our 3rd Dan grading included (as one of many tasks) a 3 man attack of random strikes (including kicks) which was sometimes fierce and bloody, but as uke's were not allowed to be destroyed, time was called after repeated demonstration of the relevant skills. It was certainly possible at a fast pace to make them collide and use one as a defence against another, but 6? I find it VERY hard to believe that anyone can handle 6 truly simultaneous attacks, even unarmed. For a start, 6 people would get in each other's way and probably cause themselves more injury than the defending Tori. Try it in your dojo at the next opportunity - 6 cannot attack from the same place and head-on collisions would be pretty certain. Nicely choreographed stuff in a demo is good, but I'll stick my neck out and say that in an unrehearsed SIMULTANEOUS attack by 6 people, NO martial artist can make an effective defence. They may take out 2 or 3 at most before being swamped. And no, I am not impressed by 6 blokes with a bokken striking together and Tori escaping with a neat little tenkan between 2 of them. Try it with beginners - they would follow his movement and chop him down, then say 'Sorry, wasn't I supposed to do that?'
Nicely put. I was told that 3 to 4 opponents is the hardest because in general, if there are more they tend to get in each other's way. Another way to look at it is that probably 3 to 4 opponents is the most that will be able to attack tori simutaneously -- the rest will tend to wait until there is an openning for them to attack. Of course weapons alter the formula. Armed with spears, I can imagine more could attack at once opposed to armed with No-dachi which probably would need more room to use. Anyway, in my experience, the training of uke to how to attack can make a very big difference. When we have four on one, we can make it much harder on the one by using multi-attacker tactics. For instance, one uke always attacks the right side of tori, another uke always attacks the left side, another always attacks below the belt, another always attacks above the belt. By dividing up tori's body we can make the uke much more coordinated and difficult to deal with. One time just against two I could not get around them because they divided me up, one attacking my left, the other my right. Then I tried to drop down low and move between them. One attacked over me (missed) but the other kicked me in the throat (was attacking me lower). I feel I cannot engage more than one at a time. I must engage one, deal with them, and then maybe surprise attack another. It may look like I am attacking two at once, but my main focus is only on the one at a time. Deal with the one, and the others will follow. (Gee, where did I hear that from -- Aikido of course). Anyway, requirements such as mass attack randori are commonly seen in Aikido and from my old school, I recall seeing that 3rd degree had 3 attackers with tanto against unarmed tori as a test requirement. I'd like to point out that that there is a difference between defeating three uke and controlling three uke long enough to pass the test. I would say that the requirement is more about controlling three uke (or controlling one uke times three). To control three in combat for a limited time is difficult but not as difficult as to ultimately defeat three uke given unlimited time. I don't believe the requirement is to defeat three uke.
Four is the maximum number of uke that can effectively attack tori and acheive a clean strike. Take five people, one will be tori the other four will be uke. Tori becomes the center and the other four stand around up close. You'll see there is only room for four people to pick out a clear target on toris' body. However as I understand it there are eight basic directions from which uke can attack from. Imagine it like the points of a compas. North, North East, East, South East, South, South West, West and North West. Stand eight people almost shoulder to shoulder in a circle around tori and you have eight basic directions of attack. Of course as stated above only a maximum of four can attack at any given time. I'd agree with Rebel that you can really only deal with one attacker at any given time in a randori situation. Although sometimes it does appear as though tori is throwing two or more uke at the same time. I beleive this is why movements such as tenkan are so important in Aikido.
ManabiMashoMan now has an entire thread (General Discussion) dedicated to his wild claims. I'ts a real hoot. Latest is that his 'Soke' can deliver 250 punches in 20 seconds - twice as fast as the Guinness World Record!! I am seriously impressed and look forward to the demo. Anyone have a paper bag he can punch his way out of?
Why do all the 'Family Sokeship Council' guys have a 10th Dan but a single dojo, look VERY past it, and need to prop themselves up as a complement to their wigs, diplomas and badges? Answers on a postcard to..... I'm laughing at this ridiculous scenario, but inside I'm seething. These guys need to be taken out and trashed, very publicly, for preying on the weak minded. I am also personally insulted that trash like this is permitted in ANY country. Most MA instructors on MAP have worked damned hard for many years / decades to EARN our position - and use it entirely for the benefit of others, not as some trailer trash money-spinning Sokeship!!!! Sorry, but sometimes I get carried away and have an urgent need to tell the truth! As a Buddhist, of course, I have compassion for all - because I know their karma will hit them soon - and hard.
