Grading systems, what do you think ?

Okis,

Understanding the grading debate, what do you prefer?

White belt until black ?

Coloured Belts throughout ?

Dan Grades or Menkyo System ?

Do you really think gradings are important ?

Hakama from day one or Yudansha only ?

Regards

 

My answers for the topic:

White belt until black ? White Belts Only

Coloured Belts throughout ? No See above

Dan Grades or Menkyo System ? Menkyo System

Do you really think gradings are important ? No

Hakama from day one or Yudansha only ? From day one for all

Regards

 

White belts until black (It's nice to look at the belt and be reminded that your a beginner)

No (Apart from giving a new instuctor a basic idea of your ability, I don't see the point of coloured belts)

What is the Menkyo system?

No (At least that's what tell myself to stop me getting nervous at a grading)

Hakama for Yudansha only (No reason, just that to a beginner, it marks the Yudansha out)

 

White-colored-black
Dan grades are better
Wear whatever you want, its only your clothes that will get ripped apart.

 

We are training in a Western environment where 'motivation' usually needs, sadly IMHO, to be pretty short term. I would love to agree with 'white until black' but my experience is that most westerners can't handle long term goals - if we accept that grading has a purpose in spurring us on.

IMHO gradings become less urgent and less important the more one learns about Aikido, especially after 1st Dan. I've seen many drop out and fade away after 1st Dan because their main motivation was the BB rather than the aikido itself. And I mean many - some years over 50% dropped out not long after grading. Why? They were good enough for the grade, but once they had achieved it maybe they expected some kind of miracle powers/succcess with women? Not more hard work.

A Japanese student of Daito Ryu once told me she had to spend a year just watching at the side of the mat and 'stealing with her eyes' before being allowed to practice techniques. She was amazed how accessible our classes are in the UK. Perhaps we are TOO ready to pander to Western values by allowing a series of quick gradings?

The counter-argument is commercial - maybe we just can't afford to run classes for the few really dedicated and diligent students who would wait years before grading.

Hakama get in the way! Trip and rip devices of the worst kind, unless you are lucky and buy/tailor one to fit and then don't do any hard style stuff - I've even seen poor devils take them off once we get on to the real freestyle, as they simply can't afford the repairs. I like them for Iaido, but our style of vigorous aikido would mean too many expensive rips for a beginner, so I'm happy to leave it until 1st Dan. (I would, however, encourage any serious aikido student to do some Iai, as I think it is an excellent complement and would get them used to a hakama.

There's nothing worse than your toe stuck in a hakama when trying to demonstrate a technique, but I have a story which will make you all wince! I studied Judo for a while and one night a beginner was practising a basic ippon seionage (shoulder throw). For some reason he completely missed his partner and spiralled around. A loud crack stopped everyone in the room. His foot had caught in the leg of his Judogi and as he fell to the floor, such was the torsion, his femur had snapped. Your femur is pretty tough - it is also close to a major artery, and to think it could break this easily was a pretty sobering thought.
(The guy's brother told me that he had joined to help him to defend himself!)

Good communication when visiting a dojo is important, though. We were once visited by members of a club who were all wearing hakama. We assumed all were Dan grades and treated them accordingly. To us, a BB should be able to take any technique we can throw at them in freestyle. Some time later, as they lay bruised and bloody on the floor, their Sensei realised the problem - they wear hakama from the start. We were smashing up their beginners - and just thought that their style awarded BB's to complete bozos!

I agree with Dave's view as a counsel of perfection. However, in pragmatic terms I think we have so many MA using coloured belts that we also need them to attract kids (and some adults) to our art in the UK. (I don't, however, agree that we need Tomiki competition to make it sexy - even for kids.)

 

• White belt until black ?
  White belt until black. In fact I think it's a waste of time grading students until they are ready for shodan. Gradings have become money spinners. They should be kept to a minimum.
  
  
• Dan Grades or Menkyo System ?
  Never heard of the Menkyo System.
  
  
• Do you really think gradings are important ?
  Grades provide a basis for order in the club. Since most students below shodan or nidan don't know enough to properly help other students who are struggleing I see no point in grading those students for kyu grades. I've always looked on shodan as an indication that the student has acheived a reasonable grasp of the basics and is now ready to start training properly.
  
  I think 6 months is about the normal gap between kyu gradings. Students who train four hours per week don't under go massive transformations in six months. It's a waste of time.
  
  To acheive shodan however does normally take a few years. About three to three and half in my case. Over that periode of time their should be a marked difference in knowledge and ability.
  
  
• Hakama from day one or Yudansha only ?
  I understand peoples concerns about hakama and why they may not like them. Many students have fallen victim to them. But they do genuinely help students learn how to move. I heard teachers use the excuse "it's better that kyu grades don't wear hakama so we can see their feet and correct mistakes". And then of course they turn around and insist women wear a hakama to "preserve their modesty".
  
  Personally I say hakama for all from day one. If we need to see students feet the hakama can be worn shorter (where I train we wear them long enough so they hide our feet).

 

For those of you who've never heard of the Menkyo system.

The certification you receive "certificate" MENJO in Japanese

Here's my understanding of the Menkyo system.

At the time when the various traditions had, of necessity, a practical "raison d'être" (ie. application in real combative situations), it is obvious that the practitioner fulfilled his duty as a warrior either by winning and staying alive, by sacrificing his life to win, or, simply, by defeat. The choices were not very varied as far as his combative effectiveness was concerned.

The concept of a system of ranking strictly based on an evaluation of combative capacities would have been illogical - it can, more or less, be said that one was either 100% effective and living or less-than-100%-effective and dead.. On the contrary, however, each school in need of a system for recognising the capacities and technical proficiency of the practitioner as a teacher or "transmitter" of the technical, philosophical and ethical structures, etc. of a given school. Thus the Menkyo-Kaiden system was instituted.

This concept was absolutely not based uniquely on the personal combat prowess of the individual but included, rather, the idea of a certification, guaranteeing that the individual had achieved a certain level of study within the school and that he could retransmit (according to the rules existing in each school) that part of the school's curriculum that he had mastered and that he was authorised to teach. Today, a confused outlook exists due to the belief that a practitioner, possessing a certificate as a high-level teacher of a school, is inevitably extremely effective combatively speaking - he should be but it would, nonetheless be of secondary importance to his capacity as a teacher. This distinction is fundamental if one wants to understand the problem of ranking - both historically or at the present time.

In the Menkyo system, there existed, generally, 3 to 5 certificates, corresponding to teaching qualification levels. The first level certificate was generally called "Oku-Iri" and its purpose was to certify that the pupil had completed his study of the basic technique and could be regarded as a true member of the school from that point onward. This usually amounted to several years of rigorous training during which, he was thoroughly grounded in the basic curriculum, in a traditional system, it constituted the first qualification certificate.

In theory, this certificate included very few authorisations to teach and any that the practitioner could undertake would only be in the presence of a more qualified instructor and upon his request.

Afterwards, there came two certificates of instructor-level qualification - Sho-Mokuroku and Go-Mokuroku. These two levels corresponded, respectively, to Assistant-Instructor and Qualified-Instructor. They were required to be perfectly familiar with the entire technical curriculum of the school and theirs was a significant role in the training of younger pupils as well as in the everyday life of the School.

The two remaining levels of certification are Menkyo and Menkyo-Kaiden both being very senior and generally issued to students who are capable of transmitting the entire schools system.

In respect of wearing hakama. Aikido is afterall a classically influanced Budo. The hakama is an item of dress worn by many schools of budo where its wearing has absolutely no significant level (in attainment terms) yet, I have found hakama being idolised as a "status" driven item. It is after all only generally worn from Yudansha unless it is 'granted' by a senior individual (again another aspect which may cause status)

In my dojo (indeed the organisation to which I belong) hakama is restricted to yudansha and white belts are worn irrespective of rank. Where I find conflict in the issue of wearing hakama stems from the reasons why hakama is restricted. Essentially this stems from post WWII era when cloth was in sparce supply, therefore students were allowed to train without the garment. Interestingly I hear many Hombu shihan discussing how Aikido has "evolved" over past decades yet, the wearing of hakama is still restricted based on a statute of over 60 years.

Regards

 

Dave, comcerning the Menkyo system; I think I remember reading about this sort of thing in "The way of the warrior". Does the sensei of the dojo present a piece of caligraphy to the student as recognition of reaching a certain level?

 

Thats my take on mekyo-kaiden too Dave
Our iai organisation recently debated on whether to revert to the menkyo system or the kyu-dan system. I believe the outcome was to stick with the kyu-dan system.....for now!

AS far the original questions go:

White belt until black ? White Belts Only

Coloured Belts throughout ? No See above, total bs. If a person (ok, an adult) has enough sense and intelligence to move and breathe at the same time, i'm sure they can train and attain without the need of a coloured belt to mark their progress and talent

Dan Grades or Menkyo System ? Menkyo System, but only if awarded by high ranking well respected sensei.

Do you really think gradings are important ? Yes. Each school should have recognised levels of ability imho, and gradings (done correctly) should quantify this. Its also useful for students to gauge their progress, and to see whether it matches the opinion of their seniors.

Hakama from day one or Yudansha only ? NOT QUITE from day one for all imho. Let the beginners wait a while. I do believe in the 'footwork thing', it encompasses the whole leg posture thing as well. But i believe that tying the hak a certain way has a direct relationship on your ki and the way you move your centre. We went from tying it one way, to tying it in a completely different way, and just about everyone in our dojo felt a difference in ki balance and the way their/our centre moved. that imho is an experience that should be, well, experienced asap really, but not so soon that you wouldn't understand the difference.

fwiw

 

...essentially yes but, as with all menjo, they should be presented by a person suitably experienced/qualified to make such promotions - usually this should be the head of organisation or respective style Hombu providing the ratification and not, some low rank yudansha running his own club for instance.

Regards

 

White belt until black ?
Coloured Belts throughout ?
Depends on what the precident is. Personally, I like the colored belt system. I'm also biased in that that is the only way that I've known.

Dan Grades or Menkyo System ? Dan

Do you really think gradings are important ? Not anymore. The first three years of training in Aikido I did though. It does set goals but, the reason that you started training is not what keeps you going back on the mat.

Hakama from day one or Yudansha only ? Yudansha.

 

I think the whole belt debate truly depends on what kind of studen you are teaching. For mature adults I think that white to black is hte best way to go. But I have noticed that the colored belts work very well for childer and by the time they are an dault they have a lever of maturity that says "it's not all about the color"
Dan Grades or Menkyo System ? I think Dan. But I tend to be a goal driven person, though I hear that wears off once you get through with school

Do you really think gradings are important ? I think that a person need some sence that they are actual gowing and improving in their art. I think grades are not the greatest answer. but it's the best thing we have right now.

Hakama from day one or Yudansha only ? I think a hakama should be worn only when the instutor fells that the student has enough ... "skill" ... "grace" to be able to work in one. It reall dosen't matter the grade you currently have

 

The menkyo system can cause havoc when trying to get insurance for a dojo.

SCENARIO

Spotty teenager at call centre: What belt are you?

Genuine classical instructor: Well, I have a menkyo kaiden in X-ryu.

Spotty teenager at call centre: Unfortunately we only insure black belts. I need to see your first dan certificate.

Genuine classical instructor: Well, a menkyo kaiden is a very rare teaching license, usually awarded to only a tiny handful of individuals in each generation.

Spotty teenager at call centre: That's ...uh ... nice ... I guess. But you still, like, need a black belt before we can insure you.

Genuine classical instructor: Why don't you check with my teacher, the soke of X-ryu. I'll give you his address in Japan.

Spotty teenager at call centre: We don't have any martial art called X-ryu in our lists anyway. We only insure genuine martial arts like judo or karate or kickboxing.

 

Hi Nick,

Indeed mate you highlight an interesting point which I didn't appreciate in advance of posting this thread however, it's been my experience insurance companies wouldn't know the difference between a 'legitimate' dan certificate and one issued under less than legitimate circumstances thus, sending a certificate issued under the Menkyo system in theory shouldn't be that much of a problem.

I'll give you a slightly more conventional example as an illustration.

When I was learning to ride a motorbike I bought my first mid range (600cc) bike before I'd passed my test. I was asked to send in a copy of my license (full car, provisional bike) as well my application form. On the application it CLEARLY stated I was a provisional bike rider however; when my insurance documents came back as far as the insurance was concerned I was a qualified bike rider IE Full license.

Indeed as a dan grade myself I hold insurances to both train and teach from a company who has never seen any of my certification or teaching qualifications, additionally the qualification I hold (which allows me the insurance) isn't actually a "qualification" in the true sense because no one agency within the aikido community has physically taught me to teach, the coaching certificate is issued as an assessment of teaching ability however, whilst I have the benefit of being professionally trained to teach and plan training programs (Armed Forces Training), students who were on the same coaching course as me had almost no teaching experience yet still obtained the same certification, thusly insurances are issued based on paper and not actual individual skills or experience.

All that said, I do agree with the sentiments you present in your post. "dan grades" are of course more widely known to people who know nothing about martial arts in general.

Regards as always

 

Hi Dave,

Yes indeed some of the biggest frauds out there are happily being insured with their made up dan grades and associations (which they just happen to be the president of!).

 

AIKIWOLFIE - TO QUOTE: 'Since most students below shodan or nidan don't know enough to properly help other students who are struggleing I see no point in grading those students for kyu grades.'

Surely not. ALL of our 1st Kyu gradings included instruction skills. As an 'Assistant Instructor' Sempei (which lasts from 1st Kyu through to 2nd Dan) we were thoroughly prepared and tested in delivering a curriculum which included all grades BELOW our current grade. Once 3rd Dan Sensei status was achieved, it was therefore very comforting to know that you had assistants ready and able to help with all classes.
Indeed, we regularly asked for Kyu grades to assist with beginners - have some confidence in what you have taught them!

Mind you, our 1st Dan was not normally achievable in under 5 years, 7 being commonplace, so a 1st Kyu may already have 4 years of intensive training behind him/her and be well able to train others at lower grades. 1st Dan included random live tanto attacks amongst the many other tests, so nobody was ever permitted to grade until they were very well prepared - except one - he got spliced - arrogance bleeds!

Personally, I believe any well trained person is able to help a student from the grade below and to complement what the instructor offers. Let's not get too hierarchical here - a good teacher is a good teacher, of any grade.

IMHO, being a 1st/2nd Dan does not mean one should be able to be insured as a competent instructor. I personally believe that soon all UK insurance companies will require evidence of teaching ability - an NVQ Instructor cert. at the very least. The martial art will become secondary to that paper evidence of ability to instruct.

This will not be driven by commonsense (which of course is what you and I would apply) but by litigation. An insurer cannot afford to be taken to court and hold up some BB certificate from XY martial arts association as proof of competence. A nationally recognised qualification is needed. I ignore the BAB in this, but would urge all serious instructors to aproach their local FE College and gain an NVQ Instructors Award under TDLB (Training & Development Lead Body), and any heads of associations to go for Assessor and Verifier qualifications.

I speak as a former FE College Director, who has taken others down that NVQ route, including the head of Shudokan, Eddie Stratton, who ran an accredited NVQ assessment centre and gained Assessor/Verifier qualifications himself.

It's great having a hobby, but once things get serious - get qualified, and get qualified in a form which nobody can dispute. As nickh says, frauds can still get insured - but not for much longer. However good you think you are and however prestigious the Japanese links, insurance is based upon quite different criteria and it pays to be prepared.

To be clear, I don't care for my own practice - I judge for myself and I will risk serious injury by traning with someone I trust rather than go by their qualification or grade. Insurers don't - they look for an objective measure of competence: Dan grades used to be it - now they are seeking a nationally recognised training qualification. IMHO, not before time - and no GOOD instructor has anything to fear from this - go for it!

 

I'm not sure why my name is in block capitals but the point you have raised illustraights a point I have mentioned on this forum several times. Grading systems and grades are relavant and valid only within the awarding organisation. I've personaly never heard of anybody grading for 3rd dan sensei status. And I doubt the Aikikai would recognise my 3rd dan grade.

In my experience kyu grades and shodans are capable of delivering a technical presentation of a technique in parrot fasion only at their particular level of practice. They don't yet have the ability to step back and analise another students technique and pick out the faults. Parcticuarly the more subtle faults.

If a technical presentation is what you're after they do just fine. But when they actually need to diagnose a problem and fix it they begin to struggle. I've honestly never seen a kyu grade who can teach properly even if it's just to their own level.

The problem I see here is that none of the educational institutions authorised to hand out NVQs would know any better than an insurance company who was a legitamate martial artist and who was a fraud. What I see happening here is the problem of frauds being compounded by those frauds obtaining NVQ teaching qualifications. Most successful frauds would probably find it very easy to obtain the qualification. To be successful as a fraud you really need to be talented at convinceing people you know what you are talking about with exactly the presentation and delivery skills a good teacher should have.

I also have very little faith in the qualifications handed out by educational institutions here in the UK. So called "Mickey Mouse" qualifications are rife and very poor teachers are common within the state school system. Another peice of paper guarantees nothing. But it can validate the frauds.

 

Now that I've read the explanations of the Menkyo System I think I would prefer it to the Kyu/Dan grade system. Within the Kyu/Dan grade system it seems to be taken for granted that any high ranking kyu grade or dan grade has what it takes to teach. We all know this isn't the case as there are some very poor teachers out there.

The dan grade or black belt rank has also taken on a mythical status in the modern world. Particuarly in the west. As such I think this particular system of grading no longer suits it's original intended purpose.

The Menkyo System seems to provide a very clear definition on who exactly is not only capable of teaching but also who is authorised to teach. I would also prefer the 3 level version to the 5 level version. The simpler it is the better.

I also don't see how a move to this system would cause a problem with insurance. The kyu/dan grade system isn't universally adopted thoughout the martial arts world. There are even systems which don't really have any sort of grading system at all. And yet they all seem to get along just fine with no insurance problems.

 

I was speaking with someone who is quite a well known teacher of Systema. (For those of you interested, it is a Russian martial arts and has generated a lot of interest among aikido people of late, particularly in the USA.)

He was telling me that the absence of any grading system was a real battle when trying to get insured. To be fair on the insurers, I can understand why this is so.

He also was told that "we only insure Eastern arts!" Someone should tell them that parts of Russia are as east as Japan and more so than China.

Regarding the NVQ thing: many of the biggest frauds running around out there can boast NVQ certification. Lots of them are really proud of being qualified "coaches." I think it probably possible to be a good "coach" or teacher while propagating a made-up art. Personally I wouldn't want to learn from such a person.