Iron Conditioning: The Myth Buster Post (Makiwara, Iron Palm, Iron Fist, Breaking)

Iron Conditioning: The Myth Buster Post (Makiwara, Iron Shirt, Iron Body, Iron Shin, Iron Palm, Breaking)

In recent times it has become "knowledge" to disavow completely "iron" training... either completely or partially in the striking based martial arts. This is considered by some to be "dangerous".

In reality, if you practice a striking art without doing progressive resistance training for your bones you are putting yourself in serious trouble for permanent damage if you ever have to fight anyone without protective padding on.

Searching this site on google for "iron palm" (for instance) reveals a lot of threads where the majority opinion back is "I don't know" and completely uninformed answers like "qi-gong brings you to Iron Palm, I think".

Here are the major myths of "iron" conditioning, which I have found:

Myth: "It causes arthritis"

Reality: Ironically, almost perversely ironically, the reverse is true. This is because your biggest chance of getting arthritis from an impact sport is through a single serious traumatic injury -- such as caused by an unconditioned martial artist striking someone's skull with their fist.

A parallel here may be found with weight training. What is the most likely way to get seriously injured from weight training? By using too heavy of a weight, a weight you have not been properly conditioned for. The result usually is simply a torn muscle, which is a very ugly site.

Likewise, if you do not train to handle strikes without protective gear on you should never do it. You very definitely can get hurt. And, it is true, some people, usually novices, who have started at this kind of training hurt themselves because they did not properly research how to do it first.

What is worse here for the trained but unconditioned martial artist is that they actually have the training to really do some damage to themselves when they do strike something hard - like a person - without protective padding on. Untrained people have far less power behind their strikes and can do far less damage to their self.

One of these potentially dangerous things which can happen to you is arthritis. If you break a bone when hitting something and that goes into the cartiliage you can later end up with arthritis.

http://orthopedics.about.com/od/hipkneearthritis/f/arthritis.htm

This page aptly lists many of the causes of arthritis. Genetics. Age. Weight. Previous Injury. Occupational Hazards. Some High Level Sports. Illness or infection.

Their most informative point here for these purposes is under "Previous Injury":

"Previous major injuries can be part of the cause of arthritis. An example of an injury leading to arthritis is a tibial plateau fracture, where the broken area of bone enters the cartilage of the knee joint. "

You are far less likely to break your bone if you condition it then if you do not.

This basic principle is called Wolf's (various spelling) Law:

"Wolff's law is a theory developed by the German Anatomist/Surgeon Julius Wolff (1835-1902) in the 19th century that states that bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become
stronger to resist that sort of loading. The converse is true as well: if the loading on a bone decreases, the bone will be adapted and become weaker.

Examples of this can be shown in tennis players, whose raquet-holding arm bones become much stronger than the other arm.

Their bodies have strengthened the bones in their raquet-holding arm since it is routinely placed under higher than normal stresses.

Also, astronauts who spend a long time in space will often return to Earth with weaker bones, since gravity hasn't been exerting a load on their bones. Their bodies have reabsorbed much of the mineral that was previously in their bones."

http://www.answers.com/topic/wolf-s-law

There are many sources on the web which point out that traumatic injury can cause the type of arthritis associated with sports:

"As Dr. Zampieron just mentioned, there is no one case of arthritis. Research has shown that it is not just wear and tear that causes arthritis. Another cause that is talked about is traumatic injury, especially with osteoarthritis."

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=54328

What I have found when doing my initial research on these matters is that there are a lot of people out there on internet forums and newsgroups who say "don't do it, it will cause arthritis". What I don't find are guys who ever cite sources for this or ever provide any kind of solid reference.

If you believe that this kind of training causes arthritis already, very likely it is because somebody said this very thing and you simply accepted it. It seems to make sense, so, who knows, maybe it does. After all, you don't want to have to do some kind of training your peers don't do anyway.

This same kind of faulty reasoning is exactly why many people do not exercise effectively in the first place. They don't want to work out. They want to rest. None of us want to work out. We force ourselves to. The flesh is lazy. You have to motivate yourself by facts, not hearsay.

Is it possible someone has gotten arthritis practicing this kind of conditioning? Yes, it is. Usually what happens is these guys get over confident and impatient and they hit something hard too hard. It is also possible, like in weightlifting, a competitive breaker out there has tried to do too much for his sport and hurt himself.

Personally, I am not aware of any such case. I have heard hearsay, unsubstantiated stories, but that is it.

What does happen frequently, therefore, is somebody sees some guy training this way on television and starts to hit a wall or something. The next day they discover themselves in a great deal of pain. They then hear people say
"it causes arthritis" and they become loud proponents of that.

The sad fact is they have no idea of what they are talking about.

Just like in weightlifting you learn your own strengths and weaknesses over time and you learn how to carefully progress in resistance.

Myth: "It is useless"

You can do what you train for. If you train to strike without protective padding you are trained to strike without protective padding. If you aren't, don't ever expect to take those gloves off. (Not safely, anyway.)

Many professional and amateur fighters have broken their foot or hand outside the ring. Many have done this even inside the ring.

That is where the real danger lies.

And do not think it is just feet and hands fighters break. They also get the ribs broken, they get their skulls fractured, they break their shins -- all things which could be prevented with careful conditioning.

Unlike the stories about getting arthritis from iron body conditioning [or other bizarre ailments people claim off the top of their head], these stories are easy for anyone to find online. Searches on them pull up a lot of real news sites, instead of pseudo-anonymous guys on forums just saying without citing references complete nonsense.

Boxer "broken hand":
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=boxer "broken hand"&sa=N&tab=rw

MMA "broken hand":
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=MMA+"broken+hand"

MMA "broken foot":
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=MMA+"broken+foot"

MMA "broken rib":
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=MMA+"broken+rib"

Google News has recently started a "news archive search" function. Their sources are very limited compared to a professional tool like Lexis-Nexis, but it does have a record of a number of news sites.

boxer "broken hand":
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=boxer+"broken+hand"&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

And so forth. There are a lot of such stories out there on these things.

It is just common sense, though. You do all of the same kind of training a breaker does in many cases. You develop speed in your strikes which can break concrete blocks. But, if you don't condition yourself you will end up doing two things: yes, you will probably break the other guy's skull. But, you will also break your own hand or foot or shin or whatever at the same time.

Lastly, I won't get very far into the more obvious benefit of this kind of conditioning which is power. You gain density which aids some additional force, and you gain hardness.

When I went from Tae Kwon Do to Muay Thai I didn't believe the shin was better to use for a roundhouse then the instep. So, my instructor showed me. Which hurts more, the fleshly instep or the shin? The shin. Which would hurt more a steel drilling hammer with padding on it or without?

But we have all seen Martial Artist breakers demonstrate their skills on ESPN2 or other such shows. Personally, I do not engage in much breaking, per se. I view breaking as a necessary art before the cheap accelerometer came about for MA.

Now, we don't have to gauge strength by how many boards or concrete blocks we can break. We can use electronic testing tools.

It is true... most MA schools out there which teach striking utilize no way whatsoever of gauging the force of their strikes. Now why would you not want to know such a thing?

After all, how can you be sure your power is increasing with your training methodology -- if you do not even have any kind of gauge to prove that?

The sad fact is we just tend to be very unscientific about the way we train. Saying to people we are scientific or that "our dojo is the best" doesn't help anything.

Point based and form based competition is probably a big factor here of why we don't do this.

So, sadly, we end up with training which is hit or miss. Guys have to rely on their instincts and such things as 'how far the bag moves' or feedback from their trainers or partners. If they are lucky they will get sensitive trainers and
partners to give them some kind of accurate feedback.

Food for thought on that.

All of that said... the power and capability from such conditioning is completely obvious if one opens their eyes. I find few martial artists who are sincere disagree with this. What keeps them from this kind of training is simply that they are scared of injury.


Myth: "It is out of date"

What is true here is that this kind of training was a large component of almost every striking martial art out there... from China to Korea to Japan to Thailand... even Western Boxing was, for centuries, done without padding and the fighters trained their fists to handle that.

What is also true, however is that a lot of people do hit the bags without padding and this does suffice for some level of conditioning. They do this routinely with their elbows, shins, feet, knees... and they do not really give it much thought. For their fists they tend to use padding always. So they are not properly trained.

This kind of resistance training is enough to get by on in a street fight, usually. This is exactly how guys start out in this kind of training. That low level of resistance provided by a smooth, even bag is a great first level of conditioning.

There are many different types of bags. Hard canvas bags provide much more resistance. Many boxing bags, as opposed to MA bags, get stone like hard at the bottom and so can deliver a great deal of resistance.

Another type of training which conditions, for instance, the fist is knuckle pushups. Mike Reeves, a world champion MA breaker, recommends using knuckle pushups in his books. He states that he now does knuckle pushups on concrete as a large part of his training.

(I should only note here I have heard of schools starting out people and keeping them on wood floors. Proper resistance training should start you out, for instance, on a mat, then on something a bit less soft, and so on. However, you can go ahead and start out on wood floors and I have never heard of anyone getting a serious injury this way).

Further, many of the arts out there still do have teachers who have kept closely to their original arts and train with this kind of methodology. Many of the top martial artists out there engage in this kind of training, men like "Iron Fist" Pan Qing-Fu.

Even Bruce Lee performed this kind of training. While he stated in a movie, possibly coining the term, "boards don't hit back", he absolutely engaged in this kind of conditioning.

First of all, Lee started out in Wing Chun kung Fu which uses a wooden dummy for resistance. He later disavowed that art (according to the book "the Straight Lead") but he did continue to use hard training in practice. Breaking, as I have noted is an entirely different matter.

For instance, in the popular book "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" by Bruce Lee and M Uyehara you will find many pictures of Bruce Lee training on equipment without gloves on. (For instance, page 107 shows him boxing a heavy bag with and without gloves on, 106, 104, 100, etc shows him training against equipment without gloves on). Pages 70-74 show him practicing iron conditioning with sand and conditioning "makiwara bags". It goes into how he trained with these things as well.

These training methodologies are also listed on other pages of this book and in others by him or about him.

Page 74 says, "He usually had three bags hanging on the wall. One was filled with sand, another with gravel or beans, and the third with steel sawdust." Steel sawdust is the same material found in many sap gloves and gravel is as hard core as it gets for this kind of conditioning.

Regardless, there are many, many such examples from Martial Artists out there. I have simply highlighted two examples.

I can note that I wouldn't want callouses like what Pan has. They are incredibly nasty. But, I have found if you stop when you get some tearing and let the knuckles heal up, you can avoid such things. If you practice through them you will get nasty, ugly callouses. I have never seen an other such martial artist with such callouses. (Though I have credibly heard of one other martial artist, a breaker, who severely disfigured his hand by using straight gravel for conditioning. That is completely unnecessary.)


Myth: "You will permanently damage yourself"

Like in any sport and perhaps especially in martial arts you can, of course, permanently damage yourself if you overtrain. As noted above this comes primarily from two ways:

1. Getting overeager and attempting a strike you are not prepared for

and,

2. Disfiguring your flesh with material such as unprotected gravel which cuts the skin

These kinds of damages can be nerve damage, joint damage, and with the head even fatal injuries.

A third danger is also common to all sports:

3. Not listening to your body and allowing small injuries to heal up but practicing over them

Frankly, I don't need to cite sources here or go deeply into this matter because if you have done any kind of serious sport whatsoever you know about these kinds of injuries.

A major purpose of this kind of training is to prepare and avoid exactly these kinds of things. Not the opposite.

In Boxing you get your head hit by trained, powerful fighters. This has killed and permanently disabled boxers -- Muhommad Ali is a perfect example of this kind of danger. It is often popularized in such movies as "Cinderalla Man". MMA promoters have long pointed out that boxing is dangerous just for this reason.

Personally, I have had serious but temporary injuries from Muay Thai, weightlifting, and BJJ training. I know that this training was different from my other training in primarily I taught by teachers who fought competitively. Such schools are far more intense then your run of the mill Tae Kwon Do or Karate schools.

Otherwise, on this subject, I have covered this in the above sections.

Myth: "You will disfigure yourself"

As noted above, you can absolutely disfigure yourself doing this kind of training improperly. I won't say that this is always done improperly as I am sure some guys do this kind of thing at leasts somewhat intentionally in order to have big, nasty knuckles they can scare people with.

I won't fully condemn this kind of practice, either. People have a right to do this if they wish to. It is like getting tattoo's or scarring. Not for me, not for most guys that do this, but it is there for some people.

Avoiding this is simple, beyond being careful with your training and well researching beforehand what you are doing as well as being well trained by a good teacher in the basic movements required.


Myth: "You use chi energy"

I have seen this answer put out by some guys on forums. I have also seen some schools which claim to use this methodology and I have seen videos of these people getting hit in the neck or groin with heavy boards.

I have also had the privilege to train under a man who had eighteen years under a leading internal martial arts instructor. I will not claim expertise in this matter, but he is a friend first and I have been able to question him.

Let me simply end this by saying: in my questions and all of my research over the years I have never found conclusive evidence you can get this kind of conditioning from any kind of purely internal art.

I am still waiting to find such evidence.

Even if someone claims to be able to do this from such teachings and does some serious feat of power... does not prove they did not also engage in actual physical resistance training to prepare for that as well.

Right now, from the videos I have seen, and from the claims I have heard... that is where I stand.

Some guys, ironically, actually view physical conditioning as somehow unbelievable, yet they gladly recommend this kind of internal training to get to that point of conditioning. From my perspective nothing could be more wrong headed and superstitious.

These things said, I do find a very strong spiritual aspect in martial arts. I view it is a search for truth, like anything that may be called an art. And I view the ultimate truth behind all lesser truths as ultimate spirituality.

Suffice it further to say I strongly admire some of the internal martial arts out there. They have proven health benefits and they can deliver extremely powerful fighting skills. But, I have never found anything here which is not explainable by western terms.

I will leave it open to one day, perhaps, find proof that such internal conditioning can provide the same kind of external conditioning.

Conclusions:

I have answered either directly or in the body above all of the major issues I have seen raised by people on the internet about these arts.

As far as the actual training goes, there are many good sources out there on these subjects. Book wise I have found "Karate Breaking Techniques" and Mike Reeves books to be excellent, at least in covering some ways to train and some of the dangers posed by different strike areas.

Above all, every martial artist who trains in a striking art - as opposed to a purely grappling or internal art - faces the very same danger people do who engage in "iron body" conditioning.

A lot of inexperienced and poorly knowledgeable people who have not done their research scoff at this kind of thing. I am sure I will get plenty of trolls for this post. Some of these guys may be trained fighters who are quite good, even, otherwise. It really does not take much to become a good fighter, however.

The number one thing to remember about this kind of training is it is not so difficult to start at and it is very difficult to continue at (like many martial arts training practices). People just start hammering away at the wall and then are surprised when they feel extreme pain for the next two weeks.

Do your research first. Take everything with a grain of salt. Don't listen to guys who are just spouting off some hearsay. These types of people go around and care nothing for solid sources or multiple witnesses or anything but rumor.

I have provided a number of solid references for what I have written about above. Far beyond that everything I have written has been carefully researched. Anybody can go from there, go to google, and find further references backing these things up. For instance, while I quoted "about.com" in at least one place I did so knowing full and well that post was entirely up to date with the latest studies done.

These things said, there are people with wisdom and people without. People who are wise know how to discern what is true from false. As a famous man once said, to paraphrase, 'you can tell words without truth as you can tell food without salt'.

The same is true with this post.

I am, absolutely, going against some expert opinion out there. I have seen Muay Thai trainers say "we don't use trees anymore, that is for stupid and poor people and before we have bags", to paraphrase. I have seen professional and well respected martial artists scoff at this kind of training. I have had a few people I well respect not understand nor appreciate this kind of thing.

Ultimately, I tend to find that they are just not very studied in the martial arts and they know little of the history. Many times they have themselves hit something hard and hurt themselves in trying to duplicate something that they saw on television. Other times dogmatic trainers have simply dismissed everything "old" as being "out of date".

Their methods work, they use them religiously, so they get religious about it. Why should they change? It isn't possible they have been wrong all along. They are an expert, and they prize their ego very much. They constantly feed it with subtle and direct praise from their peers and it stands on the bedrock of their years of arduous training.

But, they aren't street fighters and their type of training is ineffective for such things.

Lastly, if these things are so effective, why isn't it more people loudly touted?

I have hinted at many of these reasons above. For one thing, a lot of people do engage in this type of conditioning but think nothing of it. Which Muay Thai fighters use bottles on their legs and still use trees -- and which don't? For instance.

Largely it does come down to this. Guys don't always tout or know to tout their training methods. They just consider it another thing they do, sometimes. They do a lot of rigorous things.

Further, when this kind of training is touted, often, no kind of explanation is given about why to do this... or how. They just were taught to do it. Sometimes this is seen in breaking demonstrations of some repute.

Usually, what I find is true is these people simply haven't studied much of the history of the martial arts across different countries. They don't know a lot about different schools. There is a lot of false information out there. They know how to do some breaking, they perform some of this training... but they don't really know how far they can go in it, why to do that, or to what degree that adds to their overall strike.

I have tried to illuminate these factors above.

I expect some more wise people to come across this post, read it, and then start explaining it to others. I do such anonymous posts over the years in various matters... and I find that is how such influence operates. I am completely fine with that, as I have a world perspective in that 'what goes around, comes around'.

I have answered a lot of questions here I know some people have been wondering about.

How this works is some person does an internet search, reads this, and finds in it various pieces they have been missing from their studies. Sometimes this takes time to sink in. It sets them in the right directions.

As far as me getting anything out of this, I am not hanging around here. I am not advising anyone to join any particuliar school, nor am I seeking praise for this post. I am not interested in hanging around so I can get praise from the few who might enjoy this. I don't operate for such motives, or try not to.

I am willing and able to take insults and jeers on any matter of the truth. Anybody who is willing to stand by the truth against popular opinion knows about this. Such adversity is what makes the world goes around and what defines us.

Know, of course, that this kind of training is scoffed out by ignorant and perverted people who only wish to argue for the sake of causing discord. Of course, they do the same thing for just about anything else. Show me an expert or champion whom hasn't been mocked by some internet pseudo-anonymous posters in any field, anywhere... because it isn't going to happen. These guys sit around all day praising each other and chest beating as an ego thing. They put down every manner of expert to make themselves look superior to them. That is how they stand on the shoulders of others -- based on deception, on lies.

So, this last note was ethical and philosophical, but useful to all wise people out there seeking the truth in martial arts.

 

consider yourself mocked, but don't consider yourself an expert or champion.

 

You have now discredited yourself and your entire article in my eyes. I really can't attest to your fighting skill, but those are some really dumb f***ing things you wrote in there. You had me going in some, but the bad outweights the good here.

I'm pretty sure Mike Tyson trained with only his gloves on a heavy bag, for instance, and he beat up a **** load of people without anything on, once he took off his gloves, safely. And I know an excellent boxer may not be prime example, but it isn't very hard to find people who have, most likely trained with only gloves, only on a heavy bag or people or pads or some such "wimpy" equipment and have beaten people up severely without much effort. I can dig into it more if you like.

The fact that you said that to become a good fighter doesn't take much time is really just stupid. How much time have you been training?

Yes, the Thais kicked trees. Banana trees. Flexible and easily bend. And it doesn't matter if you're stupied enough to think you can ever continuosly kick a big, sturdy oak tree with full force, go ahead and try it. The human body has a natural limit, I'm afraid to say, and that steps well before kicking big ass trees. Besides, Buakaw, Samkor and many other famous Thai boxers trained their shins on heavy bags and pads and people alone. I wouldn't dare calling their kicks weak or their shins fragile, not in front of them anyway.

All that aside, I'd rather be practicing how to hit someone in the bottom part of their face (mainly nose & cheeks) then conditioning my hand to hit their forehead. Not only am I sure that there's more than 30% chance you will break you hand on his forehead no matter how conditioned your hand is, it will also not have much effect.

 

Really, I see a lot of people dissing what hellsender has said, but I haven't seen a single post actually debunking with anything more than "omg, lol! teh silly!".

Isn't it common sense that if you don't progressively train to hit without padding, you risk hurting yourself when you're forced to do so?

Now if it is useful and worth the time / risk to be able to do so, of course that is debatable.

But in my humble opinion, good use use of sane Iron Palm training (ie; not punching metal plates) along with the relevant liniments is neither really dangerous nor exactly essential for anyone but crazed street fighters.

 

Who would bother?

This isn't the first thread with psuedo scientific pap that he's posted. Perhaps someone with more patience and a whole lot of time on their hands... but frankly speaking - most people know tripe when they smell it.

With it's gloss of patronization... it's enough to make you puke.

 

Another thread??????? nobodys buying it.

 

Yeah you would tthink after the reaction bellender gets every time he starts one of these threads he would just take the hint/

 

Looks like I've been missing out on some good stuff...

 

I will not take the time to go into this point by point but will bring out a couple of things from personal experience.
I believe in body conditioning and it has it's advantages. It is a fact that a hard striking surface will do more damage then a soft one.
I have conditioned my hands and other striking surfaces for many years.
Before you take this course I can tell you as with all things there is a price to makeing your hands weapons. From personal experience you will lose dexterity in your hands. I will try to sit down and write a more detailed description about this subject from my personal experiences and research as soon as I have time.

 

The whole post seems predicated on the assumption that hitting things with a bare hand makes your bones stronger. I think that you will mostly be making your skin tougher.

 

I doubt the original poster will be back to MAP frankly speaking.

 

Actually he's right on some stuff. Using a makiwara is a very good method of conditioning your striking surfaces if used correctly. And they do in fact condition more than just the skin, though calouses do form on your knuckles. It works by breaking down the inner matrix of bone inside your knuckles causeing them to grow back with greater density thus making them harder than before. A practitioner of this method can thus do more damage with his strikes than someone who has never used this method. They are also less likely to injure themselves via a strike. I have been a practitioner of Goju Ryu for 23 years now and my grandfather who taught me has been for 56 years and we both use a makiwara, along with a wooden fence post for elbow and chop strikes. Doing so just with your knuckles will give you built-in brass knuckles that I'm sure your oponent will notice.

 

Nnnnnecropost!

 

Breaking is no test of skill and requires no training.

It is only a confidence builder and show stopper

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92800

In addition, martial artists no longer have to do this type of conditioning as their practices are hardly ever gonna lead them to use whatever skills.

In other words, eras past this would have been perhaps a necessity, but in these times, a conditioned hand is not as worth as a practiced proper method-technique

 

Osu,


Not as worth doesn't mean useless.
I am at odds with the contradiction that no skills are required (only confidence) and "a practiced proper method-technique"...

I don't think that repeating the same post 3 or 4 times makes your argument better.
I also do not think that breaking does not require skill and technique as you would have us all believe.

Just sayin'


Osu!

 

No skills or training are required.

My college buds and other people without skill and training can do it.

It used to be a great party trick performed by a few guys-no martial art, no skill, no training.

It only requires the correct material selection and a attitude.

 

Osu,


We'll have to agree to disagree here...
Breaking a baseball bat (a Louisville slugger, not a pine one for MA clowns), let alone several simultaneously with your shin requires quite a bit of training, good conditioning, high skill, AND the proper confidence, mindset and spirit.

Although it may be possible to find the odd "genetic freak" that could do it without proper training, the vast majority of martial artists could build up to it with proper method and training.

Breaking a pineboard "said to be 1 inch", but really only 18mm thick, along the grain, is no breaking feat... A 6 years old can also break a pine chopstick with tettsui with no risk and great pride!


Osu!

 

Osu,


On topic, Iron Conditioning is time consuming, and requires patience and consistency that few people possess today... There may arguably be other more efficient methods; or skipping it altogether may work for some... Yet, slowly building "farmer's strength" with consistent use of small increasing loads and little increasing resistance works.

The OP has a lot of merits and did not deserve the intense flak from some...

My observation is that few people have the will and dedication necessary to achieve the desired outcome of iron conditioning... for whatever reasons.


Osu!

 

Parlour tricks. Breaking the bat against the thinnest weakest part.

No skill. No training

It is not a test of martial skill. Martial skill can only be tested against other people.

 

Osu,


Hummmmm, what does that tell me about you???



Osu!