Hello to Everyone out there, I just registered here and have read literally hundreds of good posts on flexibility, but the don't quite fit my questions. I thought the best way to get a comprehensive answer wuold be to explain the problem I have been having and see if any of you fine people have had similar problems and found solutions. Here we go: When I was 19-20 I was full blown into Northern Shaolin Kung Fu - man I loved it! Couldn't get enough of it. Was fairly flexible ( with legs in front could put head to knees, could almost do full side splits ) and was half way to my black belt. One day on the way to the dojo a drunk slammed into my car and ended all that. I spent about a year learning to walk properly again and the physiotherapist was that was about as good as I was going to get. Fast forward to 38. I enrolled my son and daughter in TKD at a school near our home. My wife and I would stay and watch their classes and I could not keep my butt on my chair!! After a couple of months my wife told me if I didn't sign up and go she'd kill me. Well, I just turned 41 and have my black stripe. Still having a ball and never want to stop. My big problem is with my flexibility. I think my biggest problem is that my hip flexors will not allow me to rotate my hips inward. This makes my roundhouse and sidekicks shallow and for a guy like me that wants to do everything right it has been driving me nuts!! I think it also limits my ability to do the side splits. I have gained most of my front flexibility back, but my side splits leave alot to be desired. I stretch almost daily (I'm at class 5 days a week). I went to the doctor and had x-rays done of my hips to see if it is a "mechanical" problem. He said he can't see anything wrong. My instructor thinks that my ball of my femur sits too high in the socket and limits side and rotational movement. Although he is not a doctor he recommended seeing a Sports Therapist and a Chiropractor. I was contemplating buying one of those leg stretching machines, but feel that they might force the joints without strengthing them. This is where you fine people come into the picture. Has anyone had these difficulties and know of any therapys or excersies that I can use to acheive my desires results? I am starting to ramp up my training for my double black stripe test on December and would really like to show them an awsome improvement in my range. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. From what I have read so far this looks like a place where people are as dedicated and passionate about their martial arts as I am.
Congratulations on your first post and getting back into the ma's. But other than that, I dont think I can help you, sorry.
It's likely a build up of scar tissue (hence, it won't show on an x-ray). All I can recommend is to stretch twice a day, after a good warming up of those muscles, using different stretching methods. Add a little weight training, rather than those stretching machines, if you have time--with a focus on lower back, abductors (outer hip), quads, hamstring and adductors (groin).
You might want to head over and check out a physiotherapist. It'd be best if you can find someone who's done semi-pro or pro sport rehabilitations. Unfortunately you are not the only active person who's had to suffer such injuries not related to your sport. So I would imagine that the chance of finding a physio who's done this kind of work before would be possible. Try contacting your college sport department. Or perhaps theirs a registry of professional sports physio's in your area. I don't think it will be cheap nor will there be any guarantee's... but peace of mind about what it actually is might be worth it alone. Anyone who is just looking at you is just guessing... there are other forms of diagnosing besides x-rays. Additionally x-rays themselves are often only as good as the experience of the person interpeting them. Some problems with soft tissue that don't show up with an x-ray can show up in other ways... perhaps with an MRI. Either way the experience of someone who's dealt with these kinds of injuries and rehabbing them is what you want. Good luck... and let us know how it turns out... glad to hear you got back to MA's... keep it up. edit: One thing you might want to consider is the standard against which you are measuring yourself/your kicks. If you are trying to compare it to teens and 20 somethings in the TKD class - you might not be getting a realistic or fair picture of the issue... As I'm sure you know the body changes over time - regardless of accidents or anything else. I'm not saying that it's all in your head - but some of it may be your perception... or your perspective. Perhaps you could video some kicks and then have some objective people with a MA background review them to see what they think. What does your teacher think? Anyhow - just more food for thought.
Also check out Kurtz's "Scientific Stretching" @ http://www.stadion.com/ I'm slowly working through his book and so far my experience matches what he says. Could help you as well.
TKD, as a fellow oldster (I'll be 36 next month), I recommend yoga. Have been full time into yoga for a couple of years now and have regained some suppleness and strength. (Plus I get to be around hot chicks--do not tell the wife). Have inverted problem, my shoulder. Smashed it in the service at 22 and then re-injured it at 31 while sparring. Tried everything--needles, cupping, Western physical therapy, inter alia. Yoga has been a tremendous boon. If it works for my CMA, got to work for TKD. Heck, yoga is even Gracie-approved! For your hips===>the pigeon!
To those who answered already thanks for the input. By the looks of it you are confirming what I was thinking in terms of my next step. Slipthejab and Ren-shi-shin - I agree that it must be soft tissue problems or scar tissue. If I push it, it hurts in the joint more than in the muscles I am trying to stretch. With Physio maybe I can break up some of what's holding me back. I also understand what your saying about what my expectations in relation to my age. I guess I do hold the bar a little high, but I don't know where else it should go. I think with some physio perhaps I can get somewhere in the middle or better and be happy with that. Believe me I realise that I won't be able to do at 40 what I did at 20 even without the problems that the car accident caused. I just feel/know that I can do better. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread if anyone else has something that might help. I just wanted to acknowledge those who have taken the time to give their input so far. Thanks.
Its difficult to know whether your injury earlier in life will have any effect on your ability to reach your desired flexibility. Perosnally I would trust the opinion of a doctor with an x-ray more than a MA instuctor who is just looking at your form. At a guess I would say that you need to work on your strength, specifically dynamic strength exercises with a full range of motion. These really worked for me more so than stretching. These would be squats with a deep/wide stance (best exercise by far for helping to work towards the side splits) as well as deadlift and lunges. You could incorporate exercises that isolate the adductors such as adductor flyes or pulldowns as long as they do not stress your abdominals and lower back muscles. There is nothing to suggest you can't get the side splits (assuming no bone problems) - age is only a limiting factor in how long it will take you but why would you want side splits, they are not necessary to excel in TKD and don;t necessairly make you a great kicker. You are better focusing on dynamic stretches similar to your kicks and static stretches after class.
Hi Wynnema, thanks for your input. I am going to get in touch with the Chiropractor/Physio doc asap and see if he can see me. In the meantime, does anyone have any different types of stretches or positions to try to gain inward rotation or the splits other that the standard stretching regime?
From my experience, long process Of what i have read it seems your having problems mainly with your flexibility, hope this helps, it's based on a book called "Ultimate Flexibility: A complete guide to stretching for martial arts" by Sang H. Kim. It's really good, will certainly make you get the results you want to get. it has worked great for me. I never focused on stretching before in my life, though i practiced sports regularly until i got badly injured... i guess just like you, i had to start from scratch - First of all never stretch to increase flexibility if you havn't warmed up. I'ts even better if you do it after doing cardio or strenght excersises - Set yourself a goal and an amount of time in which you want to attain it. make yourself a routine that emphazises on stetching the area that's causing you problems. don't exagerate though, just include 2 or 3 more excersise for that area. Overall it shouldn't last more than 15 to 20 minutes, and just do it once a day, any more doesn't help your flexibility. I've found it better to strech after finishing class, it allows me to take myself further. - practice each static stretch for not more than 20 seconds, any further is proven not to boost your flexibility, (it does develop more strength and endurance in that area though). Do 3 to 4 repetitions on each side. For dynamic stretches do 8 to 12 times on each side - Focus on doing the stretch right, don't cheat, that will reflect on your results. It doesn´t matter how far you get but how you feel the strecht. Perform each stretch until you feel tension in the muscle, but not pain. :bang: - Do your routine from 3 to 6 times a week. This author really emphazises that flexibility is something that is obtained after regular conscient practice and it's a process that can't be hurried, shouldn't be a problem though as it's the same as everything in MA's! Wish you luck
I agree, & it's a great book. I have just acquired it myself. And this lesson by the author hits home for me. Last year, my impatience and over-stretching caused me such injuries. I learned the hard way. Anyways, good luck! Your getting back to MA is quite an inspiration.
Hityawitdat and Beag911, Thanks for the info - I just might get that book. I was also talking with some of the people and my dojung and a couple of them recommended Stretching Scientifically by Thomas Kurz. It sounds good too. Looks like I might have some more reading in my near future. Thanks again.
Hi TKDragon Providing you haven't got an undiagnosed medical problem, I've got the perfect excercise that will yield great benefits in the hip area - and will get you into the box splits when you master it! I do this excercise daily, and can get right down - but i couldn't when i originally started. You'll probably find that when you first attempt it - you'll be actually kneeling on your knees, but relax, and with practice, you'll soon notice results - eventually you'll be on the side of your knees, and then in the end you'll be on the inside of your thighs - you'll know when you get there as you feel your manhood pressing on the floor The greater you relax, the further you'll go. I read somebody's comments above about only holding the stretch for 20 seconds at a time - and i'm not saying that the statement is incorrect - on the contrary - as i have been stretching for quite some time and have attended 2 seminars by my idol Jean Frenette :love: and he also recommends between 10 and 20 seconds also. But, i hold each stretch (especially the one in the picture) for about 5 minutes at a time. This maybe a little too long for you as your just starting out, but learn to relax into the stretch - thats the most important bit. Also, push the hips backwards and forwards (whilst maintaining the stetch), this will free the hips up even further. When you've successfully mastered the above, try extending one leg out straight, whilst keeping the other bent, and then swapping, however you want to maintain the original position even though your straightening a leg. With one leg extended, push the hips backwards and forwards again, and when you feel really brave, try both legs straight and you'll be surprised what happens Best of Luck Soni
that is an excellent stretch Soni that I used to do but didnt stick with it long enough to see the results. I will start incorporating it again I think. do you have your thighs at a right angle to your torso. Has it affected your kicks at all???? Master Kim's work is excellent, but it is a little dated (although still good) and incorporates ballisitic stretching (avoid). His video Ultimate kicking drills also incorporates flexilbity training and IMO is a far better resource if your main goalis imrpovoing the height of your kicks. Kurz probably offers a better system for improving flexibility, based on solid scientific research.
Hello Hello: I'm just getting out of a similar situation myself. About five years ago next March at the age of 31 I was rear-ended by an SUV while parked. I was shoulder-checking to the left at the time of impact to see if I could pull out into traffic, so my spine was rotated when I was hit. I tore ligaments the length of my spine, and got a pretty decent impact on the left side of my head. I pretty much lost fine motor skills in my right hand, about 90% use of my left leg, and some of the muscles in my right eye were paralyzed, but in a way that made them shake so much I needed to wear an eye patch until I could get them severed via surgery. (Surprisingly, eye muscles often grow back if severed, and mine seem to have. I couldn't twist my spine to the left at all for about six months after the accident, and I went from being able to drop down into the splits to not being able to touch my toes, and from running a sub-4:30 mile to learning how to walk again, and my sit-up count dropped from 1,000-plus to zero. Not all physiotherapists are created equal, I'm afraid. There are some who understand physically fit people, but the bulk are in the business of teaching people that if they lose 30kg and learn to lift properly, their backs won't hurt any more. The line-ups for the good ones can get pretty long. The one I had worked with the kind of people who were less flexible when they went out than I was when I went in a week after the accident. I did later hook up with one of the better ones, who used to compete in modern wushu & full-contact sparring, & the couple of treatments & advice he gave me did more than the months I spent with the one insurance assigned me. (Here, if you can't drive after an accident, they send you to the one closest to where you work or live, so that you can actually get to them.) I've also found a very good chiropractor, after trying a number who didn't seem to do anything for me. (I know people who swear by some of the ones I tried & didn't like, so maybe it isn't just a matter of skill or knowledge, but of which one you click with.) At any rate, try a number of different professionals such as chiros or physios if you don't think you're getting results from the one you're seeing. Anyway, now, at ate 35 I can get into the side splits fairly easily, and I'm pretty confident the centre splits are returning. I still have a few issues with some vertebrae around shoulder blade level which make running difficult, but I'm pretty optimistic there as well. Flexibility is a pretty tricky thing once past the prime flush of youth, I'm afraid. It's partly physical, partly psychological, & partly emotional, and each aspect is a challenge by itself, let alone in combination. Accordingly, anything that is simplified enough to be called a "method" probably won't work by itself. When you're young, your mind and body are intrinsically flexible, and any kind of method will get you results. I'd agree with your instructor that your thigh bones are probably too high in your hip socket. This will result in the kind of flexibility issues you were talking about, and besides, most people have this problem to some degree or another by age 41. Our Western mentality about these kind of things is to look at every aspect separately. This approach is great for some things, not so great for others. We tend to think of flexibility as one thing, strength as another, and endurance as something else entirely. We don't think of how these aspects relate to our psychological & emotional situation. What it comes down to, though, is that a muscle fibre is at any given time relaxed or tight. As we get older, more and more of our muscle fibres are tight all the time. This reduces our flexibility, endurance, strength, etc, because we have fewer healthy fibres to use, and they have to fight against the permanently contracted ones. Why are these fibres permently contracted? The causes can be physical, such as injuries or bad posture. They can also be mental or emotional; all those little stresses you go through add up over time. The long and short of it is, though, that it doesn't really matter why; damage from the accident is indistinguishable from damage caused by an :bang: ******* boss over 10 years, or from the thousands of (ultimately rewarding) stresses of parenthood & family life. There isn't any single, simple answer. You will have to try many different "methods", and treat each method as an excuse to learn something. Most methods for flexibility have something good in them, or they wouldn't be around, but a lot of them claim to have the "final answer". The "style vs. style" attitude isn't limited to martial arts, I'm afraid. :Angel: I've tried a number of different methods. I went on a 6-month yoga breathing intensive about 18 months after the accident, for example, which was the first thing I really responded to. Whether this was due entirely to the practice, or whether I was at a point in time where I was simply "ready" to respond to something, I can't say. A friend of mine had recently come home from a year in India practicing, and had time to teach when I had time to learn. At any rate, there is an understanding how emotional & physical states are connected via breathing that can be understood by practicing the yogic breathing that applies to almost everything we do. Proceeding to more "practical" aspects of stretching: Most people tend to think of flexibility as a matter of "bending", while it should really be more one of "extending". In more practical terms, if you have bad flexibility because your thigh bones /femurs are pulled to high in your hip socket, you can stretch by bending forwards all you want, but until you get your fenurs to drop, you won't get any results. Also, muscles, tendons & legaments never work in isolation, but are effected by and effect dozens of others. If your hips are "contracted", your entire spine and shoulders probably are as well. I'd start by exercises to lengthen or extend the spine, hips and shoulders. This is easiest if you have someone who can help you stretch. an easy example of this is lying on either your front or back, and have someone pull your leg down and away from your hip. They can then try to rotate your leg into positions you have difficulties getting into yourself. You can also have them bend your leg forwards or backwards while keeping the pull down and away from the hip. This also works very well with the arms/shoulders. For single person stretches, I really like lying on my back or side (depending on flexibility) and bending my knee backwards to stretch the front of my leg. Here the thought should be to get the longest extension between the knee and ribcage, not on how far you can bend the knee. How far you can gend the knee is important, of course, but if you pinch your lower back to do so, you can get counter-productive results. Regarding training, TKD has some really good forms & stance work. When doing stances, there is an area in the lower back that us grownups need to focus on from time to time. It's the area of the spine from the top of the tailbone upwards for about a hand's span. In Chinese martial arts, this area is so important that it's given the name "bright gate" or "ming men". It's considered the first area that qi has difficulty passing through. At any rate, whenever you go into a stance, this area should lengthen, not contract. If you want to be able to transmit power from your legs through your back and arms so that you can hit and push hard, you have to be able to extend this area. It's also very important in terms of having a healthy back. This post is getting a little long. I'll try sending you a PM and we can discuss in more length, as it's a complicated subject. Jeff
Yeah I've tried that stretch that Soni demonstrated earlier. None of my instructors showed it to me, it just kind of came to me one day while I was stretching...although because my instructors never showed me that stretch, I was'nt sure if it worked well, but obviously it does, lol. So I think I will use that stretch from now on. Thanks Soni...lol, I wonder how many other efficient stretches I may have stumbled upon and did'nt know it...
Hi Wynnema & SixthVictim117 and Everybody Else Sorry i didn't respond to your PM Wynnema, i've been away on work and only got back at 01:00 today so i'll reply here if thats ok The stretch took me about 6 months to get my groin to the floor. After i reached this stage I started putting one leg out straight, and then the other, and then both. The box splits came along quite quickly once i mastered this stretch. Its all about relaxing into the stretch. Try it whilst your watching TV, but try and keep your mind on the muscles being stretched. In answer to your question about how the stretch helps with kicking, it will increase the hight of your chamber in the roundhouse or side kick before kicking, you'll kick higher, and when your flexible you don't need to use as much effort to execute the kick either - thus your kicks will be stronger and more powerful. Your kick will also look a lot nicer and tidier with a high chamer
it makes sense, the higher you can chamber the higher the kick - simple. was that 6 months every night? and how far from the floor were you when you started in earnest Whereabouts in Kent are you I was in Sandwich last week at Pfizer they are one of our clients.
Don't know exactly how many inches i was away from the floor, but lets put it this way, to give you some idea, i was kneeling on the inner side of my knees - as i remember because it used to hurt my knees when on solid flooring, whereas as you get lower, you've got a bit more meat and flesh (excuse the expression ), so the lower you go the more comfortable it gets I live near J4 of the M20 And yes i practiced most nights
