Flexibility and Chiropractic Care

This statement is true with regards to things that actually aren't scientific, i.e. the metaphysical. There maybe merits some alternative practices, but when their central hypothesis is based on something metaphysical, then they CAN'T be correct by ways of their hypothesis (and I'm talking about the practice as a whole both practical and theoretical).

When are they ever? But what I do agree with is that THEY ARE MORE SO THAN ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE.

Personally I'd prefer if all alternative medicines didn't exist. They charge people way too much for way too little, and take away insurance money that can be used for the factually (to an extent FAR greater than any alt. therapy) based hospitals. And they even have the possibility of stopping people from pursuing real treatment, or outright harming their patients.
This is my opinion as transparent as day. Love it or hate it.

 

Isn't the corruption in medicine almost exclusively related to pharmaceuticals?

I've never heard of deliberately biased trials in say, physiotherapy or opthamology (not saying it hasn't, just that I've not heard of it).

So, as far as I can make out, while big pharma corps can be corrupt, medical practices equivalent to chiropractic treatment are in a completely different league in terms of evidence (from my humble layman's perspective).

 

Alright then read what is written to you and not to Dave.
Also if I have to cover all of my bases when discuss the most trivial topics then I'll have to write an essay per a post, and by god this is a hobby at best. Of course I'm going to oversimplify things and of course I'm going to say something inaccurate, just pick your battles is all I'm saying.

It does annoy me and that's why I'm more of a lurker. Maybe people don't like Tool? They're a good band though.

 

Are you calling me a tool? Really? You went there?

I'm on your side here. But saying blanket statements that seem to imply there's no corruption in mainstream medicine don't help that side.
It's not nitpicking to say that that isn't an accurate take on medicine.
If we want alt-med to acknowledge how shakey their evidence base is then all we can do is present mainstream med openly and accurately.
Honestly if you react with this level of annoyance to things you type being clairified then either be more careful with what you type or don't type at all.

 

I think this is a good point; I'm a big proponent of leading by example, and I don't think there are any medical professionals who don't recognise there is scope for improvement in both research and treatment in their field.

But, as I've read it, Lad is talking about the scientific basis behind the hypotheses of these treatments. Unless you're a chiropractor I can't see how you can argue about that.

I don't think he was calling you a tool either. It was a bit of a skewed point, but I read it as: "no matter how you feel about Tool, there is no point arguing about their musical skill because it is demonstrably very good. To debate otherwise is arguing for the sake of it."

 

Tool :' D

 

Come on don't be thick. Everyone and their grandma knows who Tool is.

The issue is that chiropractics and other alternative therapies are corrupted by their very nature. Their based on lies and pseudoscience. The mainstream medical system is by comparison far less corrupt, sure there is lobbying and other political bull, when isn't there, but the difference is at the end of the day I know the chemotherapy will improve my chances of survival and the JuJu crystals or alignment therapy won't do jack.

I get worked up about it, since people are quick to overestimate the problem and build some conspiracy in their head that the mainstream medical system is out to get them. And this is just a silly idea which can be very dangerous.

The corruption is mostly in the private researchers and/or developers, since they have the most money to make from halting their competition in their drug developments. But it's very misleading to say or allude that this corruption trickles down to every patient that walks through the hospital doors. At the end of the day the patient is receiving (or has the possibility to receive) far more effective care than if they were to go to alt medicine. Obviously the topic is bigger than the musculoskeletal system, but those that distrust the mainstream medical system generally hate the system as a whole, and not just the physio therapy part or the immunology parts and are more susceptible to buy into the holistic aspects of alt medicine X (including chiropractics).

Do doctors sometime get the diagnosis wrong, heck yeh they're only flesh and blood. But their success rate is still miles higher then alt medicine.

I doubt that helps though. I'm from the mentality that you should read the bible to become an atheist; so people should see for themselves where their practices are faulty rather than see where other practices are better or worse.

 

The tool thing was about my avatar. I was just making a rather lame crack that people are being mean to me on this forum because they don't like tool

Edit: Mind you David Harrison's point is pretty cool too xD

 

Of course I know who Tool are. I just didn't get why you would even bring liking a band into this!?!
I assumed that as you were annoyed with me it was a thinly veiled attempt to get a dig in.
A couple of you have sort of explained it and I still don't get why you did it.
Nothing to do with being thick. It's just an odd thing to do and an odd way to make a point.

Anyway...all the rest I agree with. As I said, I'm on your side.

I think my point about withholding trial data in mainstream med is a good one because that's exactly what alt-med people do too.
It's bad practice whoever does it because it distorts the true picture.
Alt med people will hold up a couple of borderline positive trial results while conveniently ignoring all the negative ones.
I see nothing to be gained by pretending proper medicine doesn't have the same issues (albeit within the context of a much more robust and evidence based approach).
To each their own.

 

I really don't think PASmith is being mean to you here. It's the nature of the medium that debates often come across as curt and nit-picky, and let's face it there's far more mileage in discussing disagreements than points we agree on. Plus you did just call him thick, so if we were to get all sensitive about it there is a case that you are the mean one.

If we don't get sensitive, perhaps we'll see that he's agreeing with you essentially, but raising some points and exploring angles around that agreement. It would be a dull back-patting exercise if no-one did that I think.

 

Do you really think knowledge of Tool imagery is so ubiquitous that anyone would know what your avatar alludes to and so make a link to what you posted?
Just looks vaguely mock-Egyption to me!?!
And I'm the thick one here?

 

This had all been a big misunderstanding. I called you thick since I genuinely thought you were playing thick I don't actually think you are an idiot, far from it. It turns out you actually thought I was trying to insult you, for that my bad that was not my intention.

The comment was weird, and I wrote it a short while before going to bed, I was going to delete it, but decided not to against my better judgement. I apologize for the bizarre comment, I no longer wish to talk about what I was trying to convey with that comment. Just know that the comment was not directed towards you PASmith as was not meant as an insult or anything frivolous. So please if you will, drop it and carry on.

I'll resign from commenting further on this thread since oneoddducky doesn't seem to be monitoring this thread anymore, and I've said what I wanted to say.

 

Wow. I'm glad you got your vent about alternative medicine Lad.
You have assumed an awful lot about me and my opinions. Incorrectly too. This is what I have said: Chiropractic care has some positive benefits. You believe so too, at least in your earlier post.

I also agree with you that there are a lot of quacks in that field who make ridiculous claims about what they can do.
There is also corruption/ irresponsibility in mainstream medicine too. Only a fool takes meds/therapy without doing some research. As was pointed out earlier, doctors are just people, they make mistakes too.
Notice there is nothing here about all alternative medicine. That is a huge field and is a bit silly to lump it all together. Just as silly as the folks who do this

Although the former is not as dangerous as the latter view.
If you want others to take a more educated and unbiased view about medicine, I believe you need to rethink your approach. If I was one of the medical conspiracy people you mistook me for, the tone of your posts and the assertion there is no fraud in the mainstream would have only reinforced those conspiracy views.
We want to challenge people (at least I do) to educate themselves and think critically and logically about the world around them, we need to be careful about how we present these arguments to them.

 

As I said earlier I do want to leave this thread, but I do feel that I should clarify a few things with Dave.

I don't get the vibe that you're against the mainstream medical system or that you've built up a conspiracy in your head. I never really meant to imply that I was referring to "you", I was mostly speaking generally. It was quite hard for me to get an opinion on you since you didn't really provide much. The only thing I know about you from our exchange is that you find that chiropractics have some benefits/uses.

And just to clarify I don't think there are any benefits to chiropractic care. By that I mean that the practice may indeed reduce back pain and migraines, but there are a lot of better, and cheaper, ways of managing these issues. For example regular exercise greatly reduces both. So in my honest opinion chiropractics are a scam that take peoples money to provide a service that can be obtained by many other sources.
I don't take issue with people visiting them for relaxing purposes (like a Thai massage), but when they go for medical purposes or in place of actual medical help, that's where I have issues.

Where I maybe deviate from you is that even with the corruption/mistakes/irresponsibility I still don't think chiropractics (or alt medicine as a whole) are a viable replacement.
The issue of corruption is hard to fit in the context of the musculoskeletal system, since most hot topic drugs were a lot of lobbying is to be expected is with AIDS or cancers, so tying it all to chiropractics is a bit far fetched.

Call me an extremist but I do lump all alt medicine together and throw it all in the trash. I have never seen a case of alt medicine doing what can't be done by the mainstream or without the ability of placebo or human contact. Maybe I have this bias since I've had friends and family do some serious harm to themselves by buying into this stuff, amoungst them is a leukemia patient.

Well the issue is, that I don't find this the right forum to discuss these issues. I highly doubt any of us are fully in the know of these issue (I clearly am not!). Furthermore, to me this is MAP, not the WHO.

I just wanted to convey to oneoddducky that he should go to a physio doctor to get a second opinion, and that I was surprised that no one on MAP wanted to comment on chiropractics since normally lil'bunny and hannibal are all over this stuff. I have no intention on converting alt mediciners to switch, at least not here on MAP