Are we progressing properly?

These are two posts from the discussion.

 

You touch on an interesting point regarding my own outlook on martial artists doing weight training. I haven't tried to up my 1RM in any lift for a while because I reached a level of strength that satisfies the demands of my sport(s) (Karate and Judo). I don't need to go higher. I'm now do maintenance workouts once a week or so to keep that strength topped up. It frees up time I can spend perfecting the skills of my sport(s), which often requires daily (sometimes 2+ times a day, depending on the level you're aiming for) applications. I believe martial artists should lift to get better at martial arts; not to get better at lifting. I see too many people focusing on smashing their 1RMs/PRs doing 2-3 workouts a week during competition season, time that could/should be spent on skill(s) and other fitness attributes. I think the point about people not seeing gains like breaking their 1RM should happen, especially in combat sports where periodisation is a common feature of training cycles. Please note I'm addressing mostly competitive martial artists here but I even advise non-competitive martial artists to stick with maintenance work once they hit a certain level of strength, so more time can be spent on drilling skill. This is especially applicable to beginners, who may see big gains in the first few months of a lifting program - sometimes getting all the strength gains they need in that time. I do however believe regular lifting workouts (above maintenance limits) should be a feature of GPP/off-season training. And of course, if you love lifting and want to keep smashing those PRs, you'll get a high five from me.

 

was going to keep out of this thread....but raises hand with a 5kg increase in squat and a 10kg in deadlift (dont count the bench due to injury as thats been increasing every month from a very low base lol) all done in competition

ill put the cat amongst the pigeons here and say loading up a 1 rep max attempt is much harder than a rep attempt mentally after a certain point in training (normally past the newbie phase) and its easier to go for a rep record

 

^ I thought you might, and since you had done that meet where PRs are more common, and also train with some record holders I would have thought it has a positive effect on training. I didn't want to just argue Steve's point for the sake of it, but feel that most people who are posting weight training logs and who train themselves are just less likely to make progress, if you have a hard day who are you answering to when the focus isn't there. How can you make a 'maintenance workout' interesting? I felt that people gave me a hard time when I started a Dynamic Strength for Judo Training thread, that the summary view was you train strength for strength and technique for technique, don't get caught up in trying to do sport specific strength training. I agree, going for a 1RM attempt is a test of your mettle with metal

 

It sounds like you think that a bad thing Haru.

There are many reasons why people who train both weights and MA do not tend to make as much progress, at least measured in 1RM. For a start weights and maximal strength may not be a priority. It all depends on what the goals are. And it's not at all surprising that those who have a dedicated strength coach who is knowledgeable is going to make better progress.

 

Jotting down a mental note I had reading your post: I never read the thread you're referring to here. However, I think anyone lifting as a supplement to their sport should aim to do something with their strength gains. In the case of Judo I would lift to build a base level of strength and then move on by developing it further with explosive/power movements. I think this kind of means we're on the same page with our approaches to why people should be doing strength training.

 

This sounds like mark riptoe's "are you training or exercising" schpeil.

 

Don’t think of is as being given a hard time just a differing of opinion between friends!
I tend to believe strength is general and then you make it task specific by doing your sport, not by trying to mimic your sport in the gym, but there are others who believe otherwise and have trained guys who have done well so who are we to argue with that?

Personally I have come to the conclusion that people tend to look in the wrong place for the holy grail in terms of strength training. They loom for the ultimate programme…… that is what will help them make gains and increase strength. Its all about the programme and the special exercises contained in that routine: so they buy all the books, reads all the websites etc, and change programme every few months (I include myself in this as I do the same thing matter of fact I was typing up a new programme last night when I went hang on I just made gains on the last programme why change it)

When in fact the programme and the exercise selection is secondary in my view to the environment you lift in and having total faith in your training partners and coaches.
Look at the best teams out their in terms of strength and they are running totally different routines but still making gains, why? Westside trains differently that ernie frankls guys, the Russian national team differently from them but they all break records. Why is this? In my opinion its because of the people around them pushing them to do better, not the actual programme.

The day I hit (finally) my 200kg deadlift I wasn’t meant to hit it according to my routine, I was meant to call it a day at 190, but the two guys I was training with both said stick 200 on the bar and we will all do it, and that’s what pushed me to do it and make the lift, the energy in the gym (now I sound like white goodman in dodgeball lol) and my training partners pushing me.

This doesn’t mean I don’t think the programme is not important, or that you cant make gains training on your own, but I agree with you its much harder to do this without a good team and constantly shifting programmes and changing your goals

 

It's funny you mention that because now I vaguely remember watching Stef Bradford doing a talk as part of the Starting Strength series on youtube maybe (as I can't find it on vimeo), and it was talking about Coaching cues and technical development. Last night before going to the gym I was catching up on some youtube subs, watched one of Clint Darden's Squat & Deadlift analysis vids, thought he was being a bit harsh as the Squat didn't look too bad, though the Deadlift was all wrong. It made me question whether my Squat was right and if I could even fix it on my own without 'analysis' but I was doing at least some of what he described as good technique and it felt a lot better, a lot lighter.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQX8yoqS1uQ"]Starting Strength Series : Stef Bradford - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8CGs1H_2Y4"]Squat and Deadlift Analysis August 2013 - YouTube[/ame]

 

Elliot Hulse did a video where he talked about a kid with a rubbish program but mad intensity would make better gains than someone with the most scientifically sound program possible but zero intensity. Will post it if I have time to find it.

 

Intensity vs Duration vs Frequency

Is the thing most folks struggle with. And often not in the way they think they will.

Getting that right according to:

- Who you are (right now)

- What your goals and needs are

- What your other 'drains' are

- The process of sussing out what works (for yourself)

Is the key.

Apart from when I shimmied from a more 'bodybuilding' mindset into a vaguely 5 x 5 program for a while...I've never followed a programme in my life.

The 5 x 5 thing is a decent baseline idea. But it's very limiting after a while. And you soon outgrow it (I know I'm preaching to the choir here). I mentioned earlier I had to extend the amount of days between sessions quite quickly in order to make more progress on the 5 x 5.

When I started lifting weights I just did something I loved. Pick up hefty stuff. Repeat. No goals in mind.

After a while of doing that I sussed out what it was I wanted to achieve from there.

Now I'm currently occupying the middle ground between bodybuilding (minus the sarcoplasm) mixed with what some might describe as a strength/ powerlifting sensibility. Pick up hefty stuff. Repeat.

Really for me strength-orientated work it's about sussing out what you can do right then and now.

And then sussing out when to return (bearing in mind all your other 'drains') so you can do more (poundage, reppage, settage etc).

Getting that right is where the magic is.

And yes...Having training partners on the same wavelength as you helps. But can be difficult to find...

Who's gonna put up with my terrible jokes and all round bossiness?...Only folks on day release from local secure mental health unit that's for sure

Good Luck

 

I've probably seen it. I watch most of his videos, even bought the teeshirt :love:

Was it someone who trained 7 days a week (no rest days)? I'd think if you were quite young there are lots of gains you could make if your CNS and physical strength are not being fried elsewhere. His current training is an interesting watch in training which can be physically and intellectually (poss wrong word) challenging shift from strongman and powerlifting

 

You can be any age and train like that (intensity). Although when you're much younger you can generally go berserker for longer. And then you crash and burn like a pretty lantern...

The trick is with a much higher frequency is you just keep your sessions really short. And you - generally - have to stick to a few other parameters to make it work.

I did a simple 6 day a week programme for a mate of mine like that. He works in the City as a trader (he's in his 40s, reasonably fit to start). And has to get some kind of physical training done to get shot of the stress of the day.

He'll continue to make strength etc gains as long as he keeps his discipline.

The way he makes sure he sticks to the maximum time limit rule (35 minutes including warmup) is he makes an appointment for 1 hour after the beginning of his gym session.

It helps that the gym is 100 yards from where he works). So he lifts, stretches, showers, out for a meeting.

It goes something like this:

- All sessions are 35 minutes max including warm up

- You MUST NOT go over that time limit

(IF you've not done what you had to you just stop where you are)

- You MUST NOT go over your percentage limit (to a max of 70%)

(Especially IF you CAN lift heavier)

As a basic example and rough outline:

- Day 1 Deadlift 5 sets 20%, 40%, 55%, 65%, 70% Reps 8, 6, 4, 3, 2 - Stretch and Quit

- Day 2 Standing Overhead Press (4) , Side Shou Raise or Bent Over Shou Raise (3) Calf Raises 3 sets (for each) as above. Max 10 sets.

- Day 3 Squat (Alternating Back and Front for different seshs) 5 sets

- Day 4 "Back" T-Bar Rows, Barbell Rows (various), Dumbell Rows. Max 10 sets

- Day 5 "Chest" Bench Press (4 as per deads), Dips (3) Bent Over Standing Cable Flyes or Low Cable Raise. Max 10 sets

- Day 6 Yoga, Pilates etc (a form of strength training in itself)

Every 12 weeks I change it slightly. Slip in a couple new lifts etc.

I also get him to change the ratio of lower body to upper. So he goes through 1 x 12 like the above. And the next 1 x 12 he'll do Squats twice a week. Even if he adds 4 sets of front Squats to his "Chest" day.

It's primary motive is to 'de-stress' him. The intensity is a little less (only up to 70% of theoretical 1 RM). Obviously as he adapts (and gets more efficient patterns) his strength increases.

Problem with a simple system like that is most folks don't have the self-control to do training like the above.

Because they can't stop when they should (They equate more with "more!"). So a daily (or 6 day) 35 minute including warmup session becomes an attempted 6 x 1 hour.

And pretty soon they are screwed by too much volume-intensity.

He's increased his strength in all those lifts etc by approx 27% since starting it in March this year. And is in his words "Nearly comatosed on the relaxation scale".

Good Luck

 

Dan johns OLAD is similar to that, myself and others did very well on that.

To be fair I did overhead and upper back in 40mins today.

 

That could only work (for me) if there was enough equipment because on that time limit there is not the time to come up with alternatives, and yesterday I messed about with paused Front Squats for 10 minutes while waiting to get the Power Rack, and also had about 5 minutes of setup (guys never unrack weights at my gym!)

 

Up in Edinburgh for a 2-day camp. Overheard one v-neck wearing douche say to another: "Aye, I had a crazy sesh at the gym last night. Did barbell curls for like 2 hours straight, man."

*facepalm*

 

Of course then there are the guys who do three 2hr sessions a week squatting deadlifting and benching in all three sessions .....really comes down to work capacity and knowing your body

 

Exactly. The system (reps sets etc) doesn't matter so much.

The principle is more important.

Ye Olde Timey strongmen like Saxon, Cyr, Goerner, Maxick etc used to train most days. But their seshs were really short 35 mins each or so.

They used to say you should feel like "You were ready to Battle a Kingdom" (the weights etc energised you not drained you).

It's one way of training that works great for the person who really likes lifting things but has the discipline to know 'less is more, more often'.

Good Luck

 

Yep.

My sessions range to 2 hrs each. Not Optimal for most folks.

When I was doing an atypical split routine I still used to allow myself to go way beyond the typical cut off. Mostly because I was enjoying myself.

It's easier to do when the reppage and settage is lower. And the rests are longer.

 

That's definitely a concern (time and equipment ready for use) when training that way.

Your training patterns become a bit like a Gant Chart.

"IF I can't get to lift A) Then I do Lift P) From menu 3"

And also really no-one really needs to be training 5 or 6 days a week unless you're Jay Cutler.

That sort of weight training schedule is usually for people who really really like twizzling barbells.

Or competing athletes etc who need to get the work in across a slew of days (Strength Days and Technique/ Speed Days).

Good Luck