This post/ thread is something of a reply to some differences in terminology and will hopefully go dome way to explain some aspects of Chin-na as I see it and in the context of this thread, if you missed it. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074841242#post1074841242 This link gives some perspective as a start point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Na The category I would place the technique I described would be as below "Fen" or "to divide": The two kinds of application I alluded to are reference in this article as hard or soft versions. The soft version would be better described as control, for me which is mentioned in the article. This sort of technique I am describing done in the hard versions I call "cracking". That term I have picked up from Chinese Wrestling Terminology which is what they refer to as hard techniques that "attack" the joint with a sudden quick burst of force. More specifically elbow cracking, but the term can also apply to similar techniques that can be done against the wrist. Terms I have heard in CMA include "tearing" and "ripping", "cracking" as well as simply "attacking" in relations to the joint techniques I would classify under "Fen jin" - see below. In terms of this technique for the wrist you are not looking to displace or damage bones, You are looking to damage (divide) tendon/ ligament tissue - see below. In standing Chinna, you don't really see "submission" in practice (sparring/ fighting) due to the escape- ability of techniques which is why they need to be fast applications of force if you are going to achieve damage. They are very rare finishers from standing Chin-na, if any and if they do happen, which they sometimes do, having seen the odd clip in the past 12 years or so; I don't think it warrants referring to the whole category of "chinna" as Submissions. They are a mixture of techniques. There is a more of a "trapping" component rather than "locking" component in this kind of technique I described as it involves trapping the hand/arm against your body only, but that is also the same component as the application of force, so in that sense it is slightly unique. These techniques I lump together as "cracking" have the characteristic of requiring little set up on your part and being for all intents and purposes a swift well place application of force. The trapping or locking aspect comes from combining the placement of the opponents limb on/ against you body which at the same time provides the leverage that works against the joint. the elbow cracking techniques I know of work the same way. Would be good to hear others perspectives on Chin-na, favourite techniques, terminology or ideas your system uses, uses you have found for them etc. cheers
In Chinese wrestling, the joint locking is integrated with the throw. You start from standing Chinna. When you finish, your opponent is on the ground. I like to train Chinna in pairs that work in reverse order. You try to - straight your opponent's arm, if he resists and tries to bend his arm, you borrow his resistance, and help him to bend his arm more than he wants too. - bend your opponent's arm, if he resists and tries to straight his arm, you borrow his resistance, and help him to straight his arm more than he wants too by bending his arm to the opposite direction.
Thanks John, I am really interested in this aspect of chinna; using it to control and effect throws/ takedowns from. Do you know of a few technique clips that are online showing some example from SC? I assume the idea might be to stay in control of the limb and finish the chinna on the ground where it is more effective as a potential fight ender ? cheers
I am using some chin na principles in my BJJ fundamentals class now. Not purposefully...they have become become a natural, useful "go to" response in certain situations, just not the "pop culture" ones, if you get my meaning. Trying to use chin na to physically "overwhelm" your opponent, Pai Mei style, is going to fail you 100% of the time unless you have a nice, strong surface to hold your opponent against (a car, the ground etc). If I had to choose the most effective PRACTICAL use of chin na, it would be escapes and fast defensive movements, not necessarily "control". Yes, you can get some kinds of control using chin na in a number of different contexts standing and on the ground....but you'll just as quickly lose it against a resisting opponent unless you use it carefully and judiciously...which is why I think it fails a lot of the time when attempted...most people at just dreadful at it because it requires not only advanced, non compliant practice, but lots of it. Over-reliance on chin na is where I think it will fall apart the most in an alive setting. It's like table salt....a sprinkle only when necessary. So, I think it's most useful where you need to do something a) fast to b) change something you don't want to happen. Examples: a grip you don't want on you, a choke/submission attempt you need to stop, etc. I'll give you a real world, white belt BJJ example. My partner kept trying to choke me the other night in class, and I was able to use chin na to keep his choking arm at bay.
I was taught to view all aspects of cma as interdependent. vital point attacks supports china, striking, and throwing. Striking supports china, and throwing. Chi-gung supports striking, throwing, and china. China supports striking, vital point attacks, and throwing. Each flows from one to the other. There are combinations of locks that will immobilise an opponent, but for most of them you end up so wrapped up with your opponent that you are unable to disengage easily. I always like to have the opportunity to run away. Just in case
I always think of Chin Na as mostly veering towards the 'Fen' definition in Cloudz' first post: 1."Fen jin" or "zhua jin" (dividing the muscle/tendon, grabbing the muscle/tendon). Fen means "to divide", zhua is "to grab" and jin means "tendon, muscle, sinew". They refer to techniques which tear apart an opponent's muscles or tendons. 'Cavity Insertions'...Squeezing and Compressing Nerve points etc. Not about control as such. Although in a bouncering type situation 'Chin Na' (all or most) can be useful when you can't be seen to be striking someone. And you need to get someone out. Most folks might think that relies on 'pain compliance'. But a lot of those techniques cause 'shutdowns' of the areas effected. Therefore rendering it non-functional. And ramming your thumb behind someone's collarbone or inserting your fingers under their jawbone usually gets their attention when they're on the drag out. That type of chin na I found most useful and dag nasty.
One of the most useful, damaging chin na techniques I've ever seen are techniques to hyperextend fingers. It is dirty and rude, but effective and takes a split second to do. Anyone who's done this to their fingers playing basketball or even during training knows it not only hurts a lot, but disables the finger for a while due to the swelling. It is not difficult to quickly grip and hyperextend the four fingers of an opponent's hand, making it next to useless for gripping and punching. Even a broken hand is more useful than a set of hyperextended fingers.
hmmm, i'm generally a CMA noob and hopelessly useless at anything even remotely resembling grappling, but from what i've seen in the CMA schools i've been in, generally chin na tends to be approached more like what YKW described: use the chin na to lead to something else (a throw if the lock leads to unbalancing, or an opportunistic strike if it exposes something squishy, etc). i remember one particular instance of my northern shaolin sifu being asked by one of his senior students about finding a "chin na solution" for a particular situation, and basically replying "there's no need, you'd just be doing stuff you don't need to do because you just made him vulnerable and can just punch him in the face". in the mantis school i frequent while in oslo, i've seen two examples of straight up chin na techniques, one of which is on the outside and is basically a regular straight arm elbow lock where you drop and pull to make the person faceplant or expose their face to a strike (which is also an application for a type of move in longfist/shaolin/etc systems where you drop low into a sorta side cossack stretch and hit the ground with your palms), and the other is on the inside where you twist their forearm to affect the shoulder (external rotation) and use that to unbalance them and basically step back, pull and tip them over with the other hand (which nominally goes at the shoulder but is probably more fun to do as or combined with a face strike). from a non-cma perspective karate tends not to have much chin na type stuff, probably partly because the okinawans had their own folk wrestling tradition that took care of that, and partly because it's modernly evolved into a series of more striking-focused systems, and as a result of both things most krotty teachers won't know much standup grappling in the first place and won't find it easily within the formal techniques without help from outside sources re: how it's actually done/what the principles are. however, when we do have it, it's also almost never done for it's own sake, but rather almost exclusively to make squishy bits vulnerable to a bit of pummeling and tenderizing. /2 cents
Here are some examples. All start from standing and end with on the ground. The words "on the ground" is not the same as the "ground game". You still remain standing and remain mobility yourself. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG6vXVLu5ls"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG6vXVLu5ls[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSwU_ktBMY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSwU_ktBMY[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcMXolNF71E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcMXolNF71E[/ame]
Interesting videos but the first one will get a kick on the face, the second one will get a heel stomp on the toes, and the third one is superfluous.
Never actually trained against anyone that knows what they are doing have you? No technique is panacea and of course there are counters, but not the ridiculous "just do X" ones you post First one you kick me you break your own wrist then I kick you Second one you stamp on my foot nothing happens to my hold excpet it gets tighter...that's assuming you can get it together enough to stamp in the first place
Actually they are all superfluous, why would anyone grab the other person without any following up action or put a full nelson on a much bigger guy while in his back? I use these videos to show people why Qin Na does not work. There are too may anti-qinna techniques around, and there are pitfalls with people train their claws.
LOL. No. A basic armlock is chin na. Those sure work. Please stop theorizing about things you appear to know little to nothing about, especially showing people what "doesn't work" when your instructional quality is highly questionable.
You are speaking from a position of neither expertise nor experience...not a great place to be polemical from Full Nelson is a staple of mine and no one has broken it yet unless I relinquish it - remind me of your experience again?
