Couldn't agree with you more kiaiki. I've seen it happen plenty. BUT, to add an interesting turn on the boy i mentioned in my previous post, who got his shodan on the day i 'taught' him to tenkan, well the next time i saw him, he actually looked like an aikidoka. My guess is his dad, who seems a very noble guy and excellent aikidoka, was possibly a little embarrassed when junior got his shodan, so invested a lot of time bringing him up to scratch, and now he is really good. Quite a few of my friends felt like they didn't deserve their dan grades, but i tyhink they were being hard onthemselves as they have all proved their worth. I think, that is why after 11 years, when i received my shodan, i felt like i'd earned it, and certainly not taken a short and easy route, or been given it cos i made the sensei a cuppa. I guess that those who feel undeserved of their dan grade, but still keep training, probably step it up a couple of gears and train really hard to live up to the standard they perceive they should be at.
That's an honourable outcome for all, then - except maybe the guy awarding the grade! Your attitude to it all is what Aikido is all about - all power to you!
Kiaiki, I wonder who you are as you haven't given your name. I have a 2nd Dan from the Shudokan Institute of Aikido, UK, but I don't recognise what you posted above! Uke's using leathal force!!!!! Yes, real tantos (knives) are used, but part of training is to learn to control the attack as Uke, not just to receive the attack and control, throw, etc., Uke. I have been Uke many times with real tanto or katana in Shudokan, but never once have I cut anyone. That is something I am proud of, as although I attack hard and with force, I know I can stop my attack should something go wrong. To sum that up, Shudokan has very effective techniques, which are Yoshinkan derived (Shudokan was the first Yoshinkan school in the UK). As for people taking black belt exams facing the posibility of being killed - rubbish! I would not have let my wife take her Shudokan 1st Dan if that was the case! I have in recent years moved on to a different Aikido school and ! am a Yoshinkan Aikido black belt, and the statement that there is not the same freestyle is incorrect. Jiyu Waza is just the same. By the way, I often see and occationally get to train with my friends in Shudokan and they get my full respect for their Aikido. Kind regards, Si Wilson
Hi Sai. We've talked via PM since this posting. Like many others, I prefer to keep my personal details private in these forums, but you know who I am anyway, mate. My recollection of Shudokan is different from yours. That is inevitable. However, please don't contribute to a forum by stating that a member is talking 'rubbish'. You may choose to perform jiyuwaza in a certain way but please remember that all Sensei in Shudokan were not the same, especially when they had a tanto in their hands. Your point deserves a polite reply. As to lethal risks in tanto jiyuwaza (others please forgive the use of names, but Sai may have forgotten): Here's some examples: One (Jeremy) got his scalp cut by the tanto in his 1st Dan grading - not badly but it bled nicely and the downward blow could just have well caught an eye or artery. You say you have never cut anyone as a uke with a tanto, and I agree of course that we would all try to 'pull up' if something went wrong. However, if the attack is fully committed there will be a point at which that is no longer possible IMHO - that's when damage happens to Tori (and maybe Uke also.) The worst case I quoted and witnessed was the Polish lad Alex who I guess felt pressure to gain a 1st Dan to run his club there. His grading in Devon was fine until he panicked and tried to block a tanto with his palm in front of his navel and was badly cut - tendons were severed. Without the hand the force I witnessed would have gutted him IMHO, as he failed to evade the blow. Yes, the uke was told off, but without a forceful blow, what has Tori to work with? The uke concerned was Andrew, a 3rd Dan with many years of tanto experience. The blow was hard enough for even Andrew to be slightly cut on the finger as the knife slid on impact. We were told (by Ken, I think) at our summmer school BB grading in 1997 that in tanto jiyuwaza, it was the job of uke to 'bring Tori close to death' - it's not a phrase I would forget, although I guess it's open to interpretation, and yours is as valid as mine. How your own and your wife's gradings were conducted in later years I can't comment upon. Things may well have changed after such incidents. Certainly these days the risks of legal action make insurers very wary about live weapons and I don't know if that era has now passed. I think the current Shudokan uses them, but their insurance is not via BAB. Glad to hear that jiyuwaza is alive and well!
Hi Mate Hi Mate, I hope you have been able to read my PM. For the forum. The attacks were hard and there was definitely a risk of being cut. I have been cut. My Uke came to attack with a side cut (Yokomen Uchi) and as I moved it turned out to be a feint and they pulled the tanto in and thrust. I got around the knife and had my Uke in an arm lock (Hiji Jimi), but my hand got caught on the way round and needed stitches. I am not proud of the, ahem, "battle scar" (some are of theirs). I am a firm believer that we don't need to cut each other up to learn the principles of our art. The first person Kiaiki mentions above is one of my best friends and how thankful I am that his Uke was controlled enough not to stick it in his head. And as for the Polish Aikidoka (BTW I saw him in November and he is doing well), he thrust his hand on to the tanto, so I wouldn't be too hard on the Uke (who is also doing well and is 4th Dan for over 5 years now). Though I know Sensei always ticked us off for such things (been on the receiving end of those more than once ), maybe to concentrate our minds on being ever more controlled. I was never a fan of the “Bring Tori close to death” thing. I saw it, and still do, as Uke’s role to give a committed attack to Sh’te/Tori/Nage, but also to take care and look after their safety. It is supposed to be two people working together. In my 2nd Dan, I did the grading back to front, with my Jiyu Waza (freestyle) before my Kihon Waza (basic technique). First up was live tanto and my Uke was a young fit Polish animal. I was not as young and had been in a leg brace for a knee injury earlier that year. I was not properly warmed up and facing hard attacks. I was OK, but it was an experience I would not volunteer to repeat. Anyway, I don’t train with live tanto anymore. I left the Shudokan and joined the Kenshinkai (IYAF). Live tanto is not used, and actually the BAB will not insure it either. Even cutting alone with a katana is uninsured! When I retook my black belt with Kenshinkai, there was no raging live tanto Jiyu Waza. In Shudokan there is a new grading syllabus, created by Ken Robson Sensei, and now for 1st Kyu they do live tanto in an exercise called Go Waza (5 techniques). 1st Dan gradings still have live tanto Jiyu Waza. I have seen quite a few accidents, but no-one has ever got killed :Angel: ... yet! Si
Thanks Sai. Yup, some of our Polish brethren were a little wild as uke's too! I've been thinking about this and what we mean when we use the term 'committed' with reference to atemi in a 'freestyle' situation of multiple attacks. I'm on record in this forum for saying atemi attacks (with tanto, fist or foot) should be hard enough to make contact if Tori fails to defend, not a floppy wave. This can, however, be the gentlest of taps for a relative beginner, as the 'committed' attack would be much slower than for a BB. In Shudokan, BB's were expected to receive hard and fast atemi and Sai's point about 'control' is a good one. We can strike wide of the target or short of the target and avoid all risk or impact, but if we 'commit' and give Tori the energy he needs to enter into a technique, isn't there always a point at which it is simply too late to pull back? I'd like to think we don't have the intent to damage when we practise, but we should still have our spirit and technique 'tested' by a uke who brings us 'close'. Any views?
I think that among the broad spectrum of Aikido, you have a broad spectrum of people and you'll get a broad spectrum of training. Training isn't the same as a real life fight, so when training a Martial Art, we learn how to apply it in a fight. The "how" depends on the teacher. What is the best way to learn "how"? You'll get a different answer from every person and what's best for some may not be for others. As long as the student is happy to train in a particular way (obviously under someone who knows what they are doing), there's no problem in my opinion. From what I've read here of Shudokan, it seems that the training offered is perhaps more realistic (i.e. more intentful attacks*) or more beneficial (Tori's spirit is tested and is pushed "closer to the edge") than other strands of Aikido. This increased realism is counterbalanced by an increase in risk. Obviously, realism in training to injure someone will result in...funnily enough...people being injured. To take that risk is the students choice. After all, those hard gained skills may save that students life one day, which is what many people train for and is proof in the pudding for any martial art. For all martial artists, it's about striking a balance in their training, as each individual wants something different from it. * Though intentful attacks could be done in any style of Aikido surely?
Hi Sai i am doing some research on shudokan, i've seen the website of the late eddie stratton and i would be really be intersted to know roughly what year the school started as it does not say on the website cheers
