Hello everyone. I've never done Aikido before, never. However, I'm moving house in 2 weeks and close to me there is a shudokan Aikido club, and I was thinking about going along to see if I like it. I have a few questions before that, if you would be so kind: Will it complement my Shotokan? (I think the answer is yes, but I'd appreciate your informed feedback) How does it stack up to other forms of Aikido, and throwing/locking arts more generally? (I'll be honest and say I was focusing more on looking for Judo, but I thought as it's so close it'd be rude not to give this a go!) - I read somewhere that it's a bit more forward than other forms of Aikido? Can someone provide a fair and balanced view of Aikido for me? To be honest, the images I have of it (apart from when Koyo talked about it) is of compliant training and so on. Mainly I'd like to use it (for now) to uncover more of the locks and throws in Shotokan, but it would only be fair to also study it as an art in its own right. The website does say that the job of the uke is to 'do whatever it takes to help their partner progress', which I think is good, but it also worries me a bit in that there's a possibility they would go too easy on you? Finally, can Aikido be personalised? For example the instructor is a 2nd dan, but has also trained in other arts, amongst which is Kyokushin - will this change how he trains and teaches it? Thank you in advance!
When I lived in Nottingham my housemate trained with Ken Robson (Head of Shudokan). Ken Robson is a legit badass as far as I could see and his Aikido reflected that. Very strong and rigorous Aikido. More towards the Koyo end of the Aikido spectrum than the Aikido bunny end. Whether that translates down through Shudokan and into other clubs I've no idea. This was all as an outsider though...never trained it myself.
Hi Llama, This is from a non-Aikido practitioner (although I have had a little experience in it, and have had a number of skilled practitioners as friends), so take it as an outsider's version, rather than necessarily definitive. That said... Okay, the first thing I'd like to verify is that you are talking about the Shudokan, rather than the Shodokan (confusing, huh?), as the answers can be a little different. For clarification, Shodokan is also known as Tomiki Aikido, started by Kenji Tomiki, a student of both Ueshiba and Kano (leading some to classify Shodokan as a combination of Judo and Aikido), and differentiates itself from other Aikido forms by having a competitive format, as well as teaching the use of knife, as well as defence against it (other forms have sword and jo only, to greater or lesser degrees). Shudokan is a particular group of Yoshinkan Aikido instructors, primarily following the teachings of Thamby Rajah, who was a student of Yoshinkan founder Gozo Shioda, and was the first Malaysian Shodan to return and teach. While it is a distinct group of dojos in Malaysia, Australia, and the UK, it is very much a part of the Yoshinkan form of Aikido itself, not a separate branch. Yoshinkan is typically seen as probably the "hardest" form of Aikido, owing to Shioda founding it after splitting from Ueshiba pre-WWII (at a time when Ueshiba's school was still referred to as the "Jigoku Dojo", or "Hell School", due to the very physical and painful methods taught and trained there), before the major "spiritual revelation" that Ueshiba had after it. Well, that'd depend, really. It'll certainly provide a different way of looking at things, as, in a number of ways, the two systems are diametrically opposed. Now, that could be seen as complimentary, or it could be seen as conflicting... depending on how you approach it. In the end, they are two complete arts, with their own ideas of how to engage a physically violent encounter, and frankly, don't need each other. But that doesn't mean that you can't find some incredibly good benefits from your training in both.... especially as you have such a thorough grounding in Shotokan already. Well, I covered the major themes of the two potential forms above, but when it comes to comparing with other throwing/locking arts, the first thing I'd say is that Aikido isn't really a throwing art, to my mind, more focused on flow, with an emphasis on control, and with locks being applied to effect the "throwing" actions, rather than there actually being throws as found in Judo, for example. As a method of teaching principles, such as control of balance, entering against an incoming attack, and so on, I think Aikido is fantastic. Additionally, the control over an entire body by understanding the interplay between the joint structures and similar is of an incredibly high level. That can take a long time to really come to grips with, though, so if you want more applicable skills is a shorter time, I'd go for something a little more gross-motor (including Judo)... but if you're wanting to commit and get it right, yeah, it's great. Both the founders of Shodokan (Tomiki) and Shudokan (Shioda) were also Judoka, so there is more of a "just knock 'em down" approach than in some of the later forms to a fair degree. Additionally, in the Shudokan, Thamby Rajah was also a karateka, so that has had an influence to the approach found. When done well, Aikido is phenomenal. What looks like compliant training (where the attacking partner seems to just "fall over" for the defending practitioner) is actually a far more sophisticated training practice. What's actually going on is that the attacking partner is allowing the defending side to perform the techniques properly, and fully, by receiving them in a way to prevent injury to themselves. When the techniques are applied to someone who doesn't know how to receive the techniques, it really doesn't look much like what's seen in training or demos... it's more the bad guy falling down in a lot of pain, probably broken in one way or another. The downside, of course, is that this can encourage exactly the type of ineffective compliant training you're referring to. Honestly, that happens when the reasons for compliant training aren't understood. Compliance is essential in training, really, in all forms... but you should also be aware that both the Yoshinkan and Shodokan systems of Aikido feature a reasonable amount of randori (free-form) practice as well. Yeah, this is what I was talking about when the idea of compliant training, and kata training, not being understood (for the record, Japanese kata, not Okinawan/Chinese/imported into Japan forms of kata). It's the same thing with us... the senior (well, the attacker, regardless of rank in my Ninjutsu material, the senior, who is always the attacking side in my Koryu side) are there to ensure the defending side/junior progresses and improves... and that never means going easy on them. In fact, it's quite the opposite. If you can handle what I'm throwing at you (because it's too easy), you won't progress or grow... so I increase the pressure. Not necessarily the speed, or the power, but definitely the pressure. That's really the way to read such things... yeah, the seniors won't break you, but by the same token, if they're doing their job properly, there's no way they'll be going "easy" on you either! Well, it could be argued that all Aikido is personalized... after all, Ueshiba didn't actually teach techniques, per se, he just taught (well, demonstrated) "Aikido". It was his son, Ueshiba Kisshomaru (the second Doshu) who formalized much of the Aikido syllabus, naming the various techniques, and so on. Each person was encouraged to find their own "Aikido". When it comes to also training in Kyokushinkai, that can influence the teaching methodology, or the training emphasis, but it shouldn't impact the technical approach much. If it does, it's not really going to be Yoshinkan Aikido anymore. Not a problem, hope this helped. To add to this, here are some clips: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaOXe_UsE4o"]Aikido Shudokan Joe Thambu Sensei - Demonstration 2008 - YouTube[/ame] Shudokan (Yoshinkan) Aikido, performed by Joe Thambu, student of Thamby Rajah, and head instructor of the Shudokan here in Melbourne. Seriously well respected and impressive practitioner. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvieoBODb6Q"]Shudokan Aikido UK - YouTube[/ame] Shudokan UK. And, just in case you meant "Shodokan": [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9YtqkENp1I"]Tomiki Aikido London Yawara Jugokan Dojo with Sensei Ken Broome 7th Dan (& Omnia) - YouTube[/ame] Tomiki (Shodokan) Aikido
The best thing to do is try. Make sure you go to several sessions, and be prepared for more pain than you've ever had in Shotokan!
Thanks for that, Chris. It's definitely Shudokan. That's my plan, JW, but as an enquiring mind, I like to know what I'm letting myself in for!
Hi Llama If you don't mind me asking, which Shudokan dojo is it? I have trained with quite a few of the Shudokan bunch around the UK so I might know a few people and will be able to tell you what's what Coincidently, Joe Thambu is coming to the UK next month and will be popping in at quite a few Shudokan dojos. I'll be going to some of his seminars in North London You've picked a good time to take a look at the art because Thambu is one of the best in the world and he'll be on your doorstep
Aha! I have trained with a lot of those guys, but never their instructor unfortunately. One of their students just moved to London and has been training at our club. They are a really good bunch of guys. They supported the hell out of our club when we bought Takeno Sensei over from Japan earlier this year. They train really hard and are super keen at learning from others and giving it a go. Good solid Aikido I know a lot of them will be going to the Thambu events at the end of next month, get involved if you can Go along and have a look and let us know what you reckon either way
Well, that's certainly promising! I move to my new place beginning of November, so I will probably settle in before I go take a look - but yeah, I think I'll give it a whirl in that case!
Llama I think you will find the angular entries (normally irimi or omote) and turning mechanism (normally tenkan or ura) of Aikido a real eye-opener. These 2 basic movements could be trained for a lifetime and always improved. In time you will probably find the body movement (tai-sabaki), evasion, alignment, unbalancing of opponent, blending (awase) and timing of Aikido will impact your picture of Karate quite a bit in a +ve way i.e. you will see holes in opponents and your own defence. Don't worry about over-compliance - its not there in this system. Over-compliance tends to come from teachers becoming sloppy and rubbing off on students. You will pretty quickly start developing the ability to absorb and apply joint-locks. In applying locks you learn how to apply aligned joint/nerve pressure through the opponent's centre of balance. In receiving locks you learn how to soften their impact - by going inside the application of the locks - this in turn leads into developing the art of and craft of ukemi - which is the start of really learning Aikido. One aspect that you will able to help Aikidokas with is providing reverse punch combo attacks - which is something Aikidokas are typically not trained with. Oh, and also some decent kicks.
I'm about 6 months into Aikido now , though not Shudokan. I find it does Complement my Shotokan quite well , my foot work seems to be improving and I seem to find better angles in kumite. You should find some interesting cross overs quite early on , tetsui uchi in heian shodan can become ikyo and , of course , nikyo in bassai dai , go for it !
It is an offshoot of Yoshinkan, and I never get tired of watching Goza shioda [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fUiZq1uwhk"]Budo - The Art of Killing - Gozo Shioda Demonstration - YouTube[/ame]
Cool. As I'm sure you've noticed, the second clip I put up is the school you're looking at, and the first one is the mentioned Joe Thambu that's visiting.... nice how things work out, sometimes...
unfortunately the films of Ueshiba are old and I don't think do him justice . What you have to remember as well is he taught an aweful lot of people throughout a long life and they each went off and interpreted what he taught in their own way, so you can see differences and variations in the practice of the art. I believe Goza shioda was classified as a national treasure by the Japanese Government. there is a book called "Angry white pyjamas" which is a good read and tells about training at his school.
Of course, there is this one.... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ"]Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba 1935 - YouTube[/ame] Angry White Pajamas is a great read, absolutely seconded.
