If you took Aikido would you know ninjutsu wrist locks?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Bubble99, Apr 20, 2015.

  1. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Those ninja videos did not really have throws.

    They where simple take downs.

    I don't think Aikido throws and take towns are like those videos.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FKcQDidd4g"]Aikido Flowing Training - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmNFZZyU8jU"]Yaman Turani Aikido Test Amman Jordan - YouTube[/ame]

    I think Aikido start of more gritty take towns like this for beginners students.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9bVNVMUF74"]Aikido Master Steven Seagal Gives Lesson in Moscow - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icIEK4jcKys"]Women's Self-Defense - YouTube[/ame]

    Than get into flowing,smoothing and blending movements.

    That these throws and take downs work better when.

    1 using the attackers own energy against him
    2 unbalance the attacker
    3 move the attacker in the directions he moving or wants to go
    4 use the flowing and smoothing movement
    5 use the attacker momentum is still in movement against him

    Non of those videos where flowing,smoothing and blending movements they where all gritty and using force.
  2. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    What I mean if some one has wrist lock on you is you try to kick or strike with other hand.
  3. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Can you explain this better? Do you have any videos that will illustrate this how it would work.
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    If it's on properly you won't be in much of a position to do anything.

    Getting it on of course is the trick.
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What happens when you hit someone?
  6. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    More obvious...
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUjcfljjjB0"]AIKIDO DERBY - Irimi Tsuki Shomen Uchi - YouTube[/ame]

    Less obvious...
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVH6eZYVBf4"]Yokomen Uchi Shomen Irimi Nage (2) - YouTube[/ame]
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Not exactly. Aikido uses striking to unbalance. A block or strike are the same, both using a cutting motion. So striking is definitely used in Aikido.

    Specific strikes might not be used though. Such as a boxer's overhand right punch might be used more as a U-punch rather than how a boxer throws it. So the emphasis would be on the upper cut rather than the over hand.

    Here is an example of an atemi (strike) using the cutting motion to unbalance:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo5Na1x6sAc"]Chiba Sensei - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  8. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    From what I read Aikido throws and take downs are different. They don't use force. They use attacker own energy and momentum.

    The advance uke (attacker) and tori (practitioner) if you look very flowing and smoothing.

    Not sure what you mean in this context but some throws and take downs the attacker will go with it to prevent injury. Like demo that Steven Seagal showing and person break fall.

    I believe there was other video a Jujutsu one explaining it.

    A person who is white belt in aikido may be doing more those simple gritty throws and take downs like ninjutsu one. When person gets more advance you see more harmony,smoothing and flowing.

    The aikido philosophy is base on harmony,smoothing and flowing and not to use force. Don't push or move in a direction the attacker does not want to go where you push or move or do the technique where the attacker wants to go.

    From what I read this is hardness part to master or get really good at.And timing and unbalance the attacker.

    When look at some of ninjutsu videos and Jujutsu once more force. The throws and take downs look more rough and gritty.

    Not what is better or not. But on bigger person trying throw them it will not work using force.

    None of those ninjutsu videos had body throw. It was more plain take down. The attacker going with direction of move.
  9. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    None of these videos look like proper Aikido to me.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icIEK4jcKys"]Women's Self-Defense - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9bVNVMUF74"]Aikido Master Steven Seagal Gives Lesson in Moscow - YouTube[/ame]

    Too much force added.

    No harmony,smoothing and flowing

    This may be some thing white belt may learn.

    But way too much force added. And no harmony,smoothing and flowing.

    So if this what you getting at Rebel Wado I understand.
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Bubble99, I strongly feel you are confusing Aikido (the martial art) with the principle of Aiki. Aikido (the martial art) is not one-dimensional, it includes severe techniques, striking, unilateral force, bilateral force, etc.

    Did you know that "Ju" means gentle... so it isn't proper jujutsu unless it is gentle. However, you don't seem to have a problem calling something that obviously uses force still jujutsu. Why do you have such a different standard for Aikido?

    Did you know that the best jujutsu technique will appear as effortless as the best Aikido technique? In fact, I believe Morihei Ueshiba (founder of Aikido) said that one of the best examples of Aiki was Kyuzo Mifune. Mifune was a Judoka that never studied Aikido.

    So here you go, the best Aiki demonstration from someone that never studied Aikido:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qerg7l-iwmk"]Kyuzo Mifune, The Best Judo Master - YouTube[/ame]

    It happens to be some of the best demonstrations of Ju, as in Judo and Jujutsu too. Funny how good stuff doesn't matter the art, if it is good, it is good.

    This does not mean the techniques are identical. What I've been saying all along is it depends on what the technique is intended to do that makes it different. For example, break the wrist or throw them down... different techniques that are basically just variations of the same applications of principles.

    This is also really good Aikido:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Lo5Na1x6sAc"]Chiba Sensei - YouTube[/ame]

    It would be really good Jujutsu too.
  11. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    JusT on my way out to work so need to keep it short , if someone comes towards you and you strike their face , this puts the head back taking them off balance and easier to take down.
  12. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Rebel Wado I think you making this thread more complex than it is already is.

    We where talking about throws,take downs and wrist locks.

    Now you bringing up older styles. Thing is Judo and Aikido today is not the Judo and Aikido it was in past.

    Look at all moves that got taken out of Judo for sports. The striking, leg grab and dangerous throws. Now it would be hard to find self defense judo classes than sports judo class.

    Japanese jujitsu has over 600 styles:Alien:

    The word Jujutsu can be broken down into two parts. "Ju" is a concept. The idea behind this meaning of Ju is "to be gentle", "to give way", "to yield", "to blend", "to move out of harm's way". "Jutsu" is the principle or "the action" part of Ju-Jutsu

    It just a lot of jujitsu in the US and UK are modern form.And each school as own way of doing things.

    Some schools have more striking ,some hardly none, some do ground work ,some hardly at all, some not at all, some more judo like, some more on wrist locks, some in between,some both ,some do multiple attackers and some none at all.

    It is harder today to find older classic jujitsu.

    But this does not bring issues posted on message boards would wrist lock work in street flight.

    Where a typical response is "waza" type training of just learning and doing repeatedly doing technique over and over with as little as resistance because it cannot be tested using full force of risk of injuries if person does not break fall ,flip or comply.

    Where Judo today sports like work on full speed and is tested.

    So if person was on PCP and feel no pain and was resisting they will have broken wrist by not break falling ,flipping or complying.

    So wrist locks cannot be tested using 100% resistance.

    This is what the other posts where talking about to you started to bring up different styles into the thread.

    We where talking about wrist locks and the person break falling ,flipping or rolling.
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    So I'm realizing that Bubble99 has a point about comparing wrist locks.

    Taking a step back. Any lock can be a break or a throw too. So if a lock is used as a throw, then it will use a more "folding" type of method where joints are bent/collapsed in a direction they naturally bend and uke is spiraled around tori and projected into something as a result. This is different that a lock used as a break, which would torque passed the range of motion violently, causing tendons or ligaments to tear/rip.

    A lock, is similar to the break, but is not taken so far as to break but to a point before break where the joint is locked out. A lock could turn into a break or a throw, or it could be a lock that aids in a take down.

    So if we were to compare Aikido with Jujutsu or something else, we need to compare like to like. So let's compare a joint lock called Ikkyo (rolling arm bar) in Aikido.

    So here it is as Ura Gyaku Technique (Ninjutsu video) off of a lapel grab

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bySG8zR9lic"]How to Do the Ura Gyaku Technique | Ninjutsu Lessons - YouTube[/ame]

    Here it is in Aikido as Ikkyo off of a wrist grab (first through fourth techniques in video):

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f1LOIqmNI4"]Morihiro Saito Sensei. Katate Dori - YouTube[/ame]

    They are the same technique except for one being off a lapel grab and the other off of a wrist grab.

    So Bubble99, you can compare. It does not matter the technique, since they are the same. It does not matter the art since even within the first video, the teacher does it "better" than the student.

    What matters in the comparison is which one is better given a situation. It is pretty clear that Saito Sensei (the Aikido video) has better perfected the technique. And why shouldn't he... it is a fundamental technique in Aikido and practiced by him for decades.

    I know the first video also sweeps the leg, that is a nice part of technique, but it can be added to Aikido variations as part of severe technique. Fundamentally, the rest of the technique is the same.

    And to further show how much more can be involved it can get. Here is Nikkyo off of the lapel grab shown seven or eight different ways:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjEam9WceMM"]Morihiro Saito, 9th dan, teaches the fundamentals of nikyo - YouTube[/ame]

    The above technique also is practiced in Ninjutsu.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    An Aikidoka would know the ninjutsu wrist locks if the Aikidoka was taught the ara waza (severe technique). Conversely, if a ninjutsu student was taught the throw versions of wrist locks, then they would know pretty much the same versions as everyone else that learned the throw versions of the locks.

    This would not cover school specific nuances and details, so the techniques would have some possibly important differences. The underlying principles that make the techniques work should remain the same.
  15. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Rebel Wado do you have video showing the difference?

    This is what I was trying to get at. And I think the confusion in this thread.
  16. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Would it be only some Aikido schools or would most Aikido schools know how to do ninjutsu wrist locks?

    Or would they know how to do wrist lock but it would be done differently.
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Okay, I'll try to find examples.

    Here is kote gaeshi (wrist lock) done as a throw. First I don't like everything in this video as it seems to be missing a detail about applying pressure to the knuckles to cause uke to make a fist, but in general the video should still work to demonstrate. Pay special attention to the direction the wrist is bent. It is bent in a direction it naturally bends and the rest of the body sort of folds down and spirals down in the direction the fingers are pointing.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1GCzl4Bxg"]How to Do Kotegaeshi | Aikido Lessons - YouTube[/ame]

    In this following version of kote gaeshi, the lock is done as a break but is slowed down so that ukemi can be performed. Pay attention to the direction the wrist is bent. It is bent to the side, a direction that it has very restricted range of motion before the wrist breaks. If tori were to perform this technique 300% faster, uke's wrist could be easily broken. Instead, tori allows uke to "catch up" with the technique and turn it into a throw with the wrist bending in a more natural direction (same as direction in first video):

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjylF_otJZM"]Shomen Uchi Kote Gaeshi (2) - YouTube[/ame]

    The question is, which is more practical? If you want to drop someone to the ground, especially if they are bigger and stronger than you, the the first video in theory is more effective technique. If instead, you want to break the wrist with a chance that you will take them to the ground, then the second video is more effective technique.

    My personal opinion is that if you had to use one or the other in a self-defense situation... if the enemy's hand was in a fist, use the first method to take them down quickly and add in a kick to soften them up on the way down. On the other hand, if their hand is open and can grab the fingers, then grab the fingers and use the wrist break. Even if they resist the wrist break, you can still end up breaking some of their fingers as well as taking them down.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't know the answer to that question. I think it would depend on what the teacher knows. If the teacher knows severe technique, it would be similar to ninjutsu, but there could still be differences.

    I think maybe what you might find a better line of thinking is whether or not the person understands why something works and why it wouldn't. This way if you saw two wrist breaks that were similar, you could understand why they work or wouldn't work and be able to compare them.

    For example, I'm pretty sure this:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bySG8zR9lic"]How to Do the Ura Gyaku Technique | Ninjutsu Lessons - YouTube[/ame]

    Doesn't work reliably under pressure as shown in the video. The technique in the video is using basically the power used in a left shovel hook to break the grip on the lapel. Since this is a strike, either it won't break the grip (because opponent keeps their elbow down/in) or there is a good chance if you do break the grip you will end up punching yourself in the face with their hand. Even before any of this, you come over with your right hand, when they still have a free left hand... exposing your armpit to a possible knife. As you may know, that is an area that would not be protected by armor, so why ever leave it open like that when the enemy has a free hand?

    So is this really the correct technique? I have no idea, I just know I don't like it and have my reasons why. I know of what I consider better technique that does the same thing. IMHO.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  19. slink1

    slink1 New Member

    I also have some doubts about that last ninjutsu lock.
    I can see how you would come to that conclusion but that's not really what's going on. He isn't just getting his arm strength behind that hand to break the grip. He is turning with his whole upper body. He won't have any trouble breaking the grip in real life and he isn't likely to punch himself in the face either because the hand is being directed away from him.

    I agree fully with the critique about the initial attempt at breaking the attacker's balance (around 0:36) because the defender is still directly on the line of attack.

    Also, as an Aikido guy, I wouldn't want my leg in so close to the attacker's leg as you see at 0:50. If you don't have that wrist lock fully applied then the attacker can easily reach in and attack your leg or maybe even your groin. He's already bent over and basically in position for either of those.

    My criticisms aside I can see the basic principles behind Aikido's nikyo/nikajo at work in this clip. So, would you know ninjutsu wrist locks if you studied Aikido? Yes and no. The basic principles may be the same (I would argue that they are the same in that last video) but they will look a bit different from one art to the other.
  20. BklynJames

    BklynJames Kung Fu New Jack

    The difference in wrist locks is the Aikido ones are a little more modern. Aikido seems to have more too. Nikyo, sankyo, kotogaeshi etc. I've done both just not very long in the Bujinkan. But ended up going back to Aikido.

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