does anyone have any knowladge of the zweihänder german sword? i was having a discussion with a western sword arts practictioner and he claims this sword is the best and most effective weapon he has handled i disagreed on the basis its main usage is to chop and smash through pikes and is useless in single combat. does anyone have a view on this weapons effectiveness or any knowladge of it they would like to share? he also taught me the use of a trident(chinese) and spear(i beleive western) of course these were wooden replica's of the weapon but we did a bit of sparring and i have to say the zweihander was verry effective against these weapons. i am yet to be convinced it is a valid weapon against a skilled oponent however. regards Tommy
Hi Tommy Altho' I've not had a massive amount of contact with the useage of western blades (I'm JSA rather than WMA :O) I would just say that you don't want to be fooled by the large dimensions of the two-handed sword. A deal of the time it would be used in what are called 'half-sword' techniques wherein it is grasped part way down the blade with one hand. That gives it a lot of flexibility in use and belies the image of clumsiness that seems to surround such weapons (I blame Conan movies for that ).
I have never used one, but a friend of mine got to handle an antique 15th or 16th century one and said that it was a magnificent and agile weapon, for what that's worth. Also, it wouldn't have been used if it wasn't effective. It can be used in a similar fashion to the longsword, as well as half-sworded. The large, exaggerated quillons are a formidable defese as well. Those who used the zweihander were often rated at double pay and as such were called "doppelsoldners". If they weren't worth it, they wouldn't have been paid. European weapon design was pragmatic above all, and a zweihander is in essence a spear, sword, and staff all in one. Best regards, -Mark
cheers yeah i can see it can be effective but it looked a little clumsy for a main weapon, excellent for single combat most probably but i dont see it good for use in mass warfare ....them again....german mercenrys fighting in history seem to be proving me wrong...
Indeed. Why spend money on expensive soldiers if they can't deliver? Some people think a knight in full plate "looks clumsy", but is anything but. You can do cartwheels in the stuff, pushups, the whole nine yards. So combine a weapon with reach and a plethora of techniques like a zweihander has, with a nice set of harness to keep you protected, and you're golden. And worth the extra cash. Best regards, -Mark
would i be right in assuming the zweihander soldiers would be verry wealthy in order to buy such a strong,powerfull and i assume well crafted sword aswell as full plate armour? i can see the advantage of this weapon now, do you know if it was primarily used for thrusting or cutting? ive tried on japanese armour and i used to always beleive that western armour was heavy and clumsy however i guess it couldnt be logically due to you would be like a tank with no wheels being prayed upon by numerous infantry, if that makes sense. do you know anymore about the zweihander? i am becoming intrigued by the german sword systems. wasnt their a famous battle of these german forces beating the oncce beleived invincible swiss pikemen? regards Tommy
Knights are expensive. They were the tanks of the Middle Ages. It depends on what you're doing, and who you're fighting. Keep in mind that cutting against someone in harness isn't that useful. You half-sword for the gaps in the armour, or wrestle him. Also, the quillons on any western sword are in essence a big set of brass knuckles, or an improvised warhammer. On a zweihander, the outside edges of all the culy-queues are not round, but angled like the side of say, a crowbar. It would certainly do a number on bare skin, even with a glancing strike. You can certainly use a zweihander to cut as well. In breaking up a pike formation, you might prefer half swording to take on the sword and buckler troops, due to space limitations. As far as I know, very little is known on the nuts and bolts use of the zweihander. Looking at its ricasso, it's obviously designed with half-swording in mind, but so it a longsword without a blunt ricasso. European two handed weapons are very similar in use. Some masters claimed that the spear and staff are in essence the same weapon. There's one quarterstaff manual that says more or less "use it like a longsword". Westen armour was amazing stuff. The complete, articulated steel exoskeleton was exclusively a European accomplishment. No, not really. However, studying longsword and spear/staff should give you something to work with. The principles of the longsword can be applied to many other weapons, which is why it's often the first thing taught in WMA. In addition to the basics of the body mechanics, it's the attitude that is important in German swordsmanship. The emphasis is on maintaining the initiative, and keeping on the offensive as much as possible. If you keep raining attacks down on your opponent, he will have to defend and will be less able to attack you in turn. "No man can defend without danger" is a quote from either Dobringer or Ringeck, IIRC. If you spend all your time defending, sooner or later you will miss, be hit, and die. Also, it is important to try to make every defence an attack and every attack a simultaneous defence. Doing a parry and then a counterattack is less usefull than launching a cut that blocks your opponent's attack while threatening him simultaneously. That, in essence, is German swordsmanship, IMO. Oh, probably. One of the primary tasks of the zweihander was to break up pike formations. IIRC, it was also used by elite troops to defend the standard. You have now exhausted my meagre knowledge! Best regards, -Mark
I know there was a pretty good thread on the zweihenders a year ago on this forum, where we discussed strategies, tactics, and posted links to relevant online manuals. I think it was either on this subforum, or on the WMA-subforum. A short version of the thread (from my point of wiew), is that we really don't have much evidence on exactly how the greatsword was wielded in combat. There are at least 3 main sources for longsword-techniques (Talhoffer, Ringek, Fiore), but longswords are between 1m20cm and 1m40 cm, and the zweihenders/greatswords i get the impression that you're on about are at least 1m40 cm long, so you cannot take a longswrodmanual and apply it directly on the zweihenders. There exists a swizz "manual" that depics zweihenders, but unfortunately it is mostly pictures and not much text. I think that the greatsword was used together with pikes, where you use it in Half-sword-mode, to sweep aside a chunk of enemy pikes, so that your buddies (with pikes) can ram them, while the eneym pikeline is entangeled in fully armoured halfswording maniacs that got doubble pay (I would allso charge doubble pay for charging a rank of pikes, even if I had full armor and a zweihender...) I think the theories on zweihenders chopping of pikeheads (or horseheads as some suggests) is wrong; it is ectremely difficult to chop ash/oak that is bolstered with iron rods/hides, especially when the pikes are held by an opponant, and besides we really don't know much about how theese swords were sharpened. A sword sharper than it's task requiers is a sword that gets unnessecary dents. Someone asked about how it was used, cutting or thrusting, and my theory is that it was used primarily for thrusting and cutting/slicing (NOT chopping!) vs. opponents at a distance, and used as a police baton/staff on short range (in addition to the pike-attack I've mentioned above). Personally, I have studied the longswordmanual "Fior di Battaglia" for 6 years; writtend by Fiore di liberi (north Italy, 1410), and I can recomend you to browse throught his onlie manual (one of the 3 surviving versions) on this site: http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/fiore.html
Flattered by Anth's ... flattering , I've taken the job to dig up the thread I was mentioning on my previous post; here it is: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/fo...eihender,+landsknechte,+longsword,+greatsword And if the link don't work, the title is: "Great swords and the myth of weight", and it is here on the Weapons-forum. It starts off with mocking myths, but from the end of page 1, through page 2, 3 and 4, it is pretty relevant if I may say so :Angel: I hope this thread is put in the sticky-department? If it isn't, I hope a relevant moderator is reading this post :love:
Relevant moderator will have a read through the Great-swords thread sometime soon with a view to adding it to the Resources area
Wow, what an awsome thread. Langenschwert and Stolenbjorn you two are full of knowledge. Loved reading this. *Goes off to read the thread in Stolenbjorn's link*
I don't really know much at all, but you're welcome all the same! I'm just repeating what I've been told, and I've never even held a zweihander. I just live, eat, sleep and breathe WMA, so I come across all kinds of nifty info. I practiced longsword last night until my hands were shaking, and I have rapier practice tonight, practice with friends tomorrow (mostly longsword, Codex Wallerstein stuff), and class on Thursday. I take Fridays off. Best regards, -Mark
Gosh, I've been out of WMA and JSA for a few years now. In fact I'm starting Kendo again tomorrow night...completely different from what is being discussed here ofcourse. Anyhoo, this thread has left me with images in my head of knights blowing through pikemen. Good times...good times.
