How does your system approach Zhan zhuang does the emphasis differ if you practise different styles? What are the goals of your training what are the progressions practised and how do they fit into the overall fighting goals of your style? To get the discussion starter the bagua I have been shown has no standing stationary postures but instead it has moving post training where you hold the posture whilst moving it trains listening and proper alignment whilst walking the circle through the motherpalms. My xingyiquan lineage doesn't have separate Santi training it's a position held between piquan strikes for a very limited amount of time. it doesn't teach listening as much as correct alignment and loading before springing into the next strike, the Yiquan I have been shown is another thing all together though
My flavor of Yang Taiji we don't do Zhan zhuang, but did train Wuji standing, however it was taught when I trained some Chen Style. My exposure to/triningin, to Yiquan is mainly in the form of Zhan zhuang. Xingyiquan we trained Zhan zhuang and Santi Shi. Zhan zhuang is training you to understand the way upper and lower are linked as well as the transfer of power from the root to wherever you need it to go. My experience was I started to feel this after I was able to stand for longer than 15 minutes. But I was doing a series of standing postures from Yiquan at that time snd I was standing an hour or more per day. Santi Shi was not part of this Santi Shi is structure and linking and again it was once I was able to stand more than 15 minutes per side when I started to notice this. Santi Shi is IMO, important to Xingyiquan, but then I am mostly a Hebei style guy. Had a shigong who said if you cannot stand at least 20 minutes per side, yuou ar enot even a beginner. However there are those that get deeply into Santi Shi forget that ultimately that stucture needs to move, moive fast and with power. Also I am talking continuos sgtanding, not the 5 minutes one side, 5 minutes the other side. IMO that is only training you to stand 5 minutes. As for Zhan zhuang it is, IMO, training stamina, full body awareness and linking. Same as Yiquan As for Baguazhang, I never ran into standing training in Baguazhang, but I did know a person who trained Cheng style who did say they trained standing postures
So far the Zhan Zhuang I've done in Tai Chi and Xing Yi lines up with this. The biggest difference I've noticed between the standing and moving versions is standing sort of allows you to learn to sink and settle and relax, which is great. The moving versions are very Tai Chi form like, moving your body weight slowly through space, which still makes me sweat. Honestly, my balance and posture have greatly improved since I started doing this kind of training. I actually started incorporating it into my boxing routine. Try doing a falling step really really slowly!
There are so many methods to choose from and they aren't necessarily dictated by one's particular MA system. Personally I spent most of the time simply relaxing,expanding,and doing various little things inside with soft tissue.And mind games one can play. The physical things one works on carry over,such as which muscles are you lifting slightly when standing,what are you doing with your ribs and related connective tissues etc and those same things are then "kept" in one's movement,whether form practice or mixing it up on the court with friends. Or walking down the street. Let's understand there is no such thing as Pile/Post/Stake training where da feets move. If they did it wouldn't be called/written what it is. Walking the circle is walking the circle-whether holding upper body postures or executing technique. I don't know how this misperception I've seen before in more recent years about Post training having a non-static leg(s) option ever arose,the name/character is self-explanatory. I suppose it's because it became sorta known/trendy and some wish to identify their practices with something they're not actually doing. Like Wing Chun now claiming to be "internal" (whatever that means) 'cause it's "in",whereas when we (such as Xue and I) were young guys most WC people decried any idea of "internal" other than the usual uh..."mundane" ideas of same. Not that I'm saying that's where you/your teachers are coming from. That's rare. Is this the common practice in just your sublineage,your teacher's method or do everybody in da root lineage dood it that way? Unsure what is meant by "listening". If you mean awareness inside (you) and outside (the world) that's part and parcel,a given. A little less in some of the practices but generally speaking always there. Please elucidate what you mean by Wu Chi standing.Term is used by various folks for various things.(Such as overall method or simply a particular static position). Yeah,Chiang told me just to do his posture for Post training for like 10 minutes.Didn't think it was a big deal. I note the Tung line doesn't write/speak of this much.I had different training in it than he did,10 minutes....not enough. Which is an example of what I meant about so many methods.Perfectly legit,some commonalities which are always there but overall not the same as what I was doing most of the time. Of course San Ti also builds relaxed rooting leg strength,which most separate Post methods don't as much,but can if legs are bent.But not so much the point.Standing for an hour+ in "regular" (high) Post postures will not engender the same level of relaxed endurance in the legs as San Ti. If it's leg stamina you're speaking of full stance training such as San Ti is far superior.If you're doing Chen horse training that's better than "regular" ZZ also. Of course ZZ does develop this,just not to the same extant.That's why just using positions from say the TC form is necessary. Down deep,stay there,do all the things you do in regular ZZ in that position. Oh,yeah.That's how they used to train,y'know.Now I'll get in trouble again for revealing more "secrets". Haw,haw. Practitioners of PK who have it in their formal curriculum (for 3 generations or more) got it from the days when some HI and PK (such as Li and Cheng) guys were good friends who traded with each other and taught some things to each other's students.
Wuji standing - Yang Chengfu Wuji standing - Sun Lutang And my flavor of Yang comes from Tung Ying Chieh
@ Xue-I thought that's what you might mean. That posture is still ZZ.ZZ isn't dependent on particular arm position whether embracing,cupping,or as your photos above. That position is just called Wu Chi as a position at beginning of some form. It's not something somehow different,just another posture in the tool kit.In some methods it's the 1st/beginner's posture. Chen lines generally use a horse w/a particular positions for the arms. I'm unsure of when some began using the high position with the p'eng arm position.I suspect some added it in the last 20-30 years.After all,it's more palatable for most students than horse work.Esp in $eminars. Chiang (Chiang,Chick-liam) was my Tung teacher who said only stand for about ten minutes. Say,when/where did your teacher do Bai Shi? Just historical curiosity.
All standing postures are technically ZZ. My shifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh in Hong Kong. Also later taught with Tung Hu Ling in Thailand. I trained some Chen with Chen Zhenglei, (my wife was his translator) he went through the standing postures and silk reeling in one of the seminars. Also did some training with students of Chen Zhenglei, no translators necessary for those
Interesting that you were set time frames, the standing undid in Yang style had 5 minutes a posture as a minimum in a series of postures (I suspect it was grafted on and not part of the original teaching) The Yiquan I am being taught (comes from the lineage of Zhao Dao Xin) doesn't set time frames for standing, in fact if you do it right according to my teacher you can't actually do it for longer than a few minutes at a time, it's training the mind along with the body connectivity Likewise the xingyiquan I am being taught includes Santi within the 5 element training but not separately it is held within and between pi for example (this lineage comes from Cui Zhen Xian, my teacher also has xingyi lineage from other teachers they probably do teach it as a stand alone important part of their training but this is not what he is teaching me)
No set time frame at all. Just saying when I started to feel various things and the one Xingyi lineage I trained in (but was really not part of) the Shigong did not even consider you a beginner unless you could stand at least 20 minutes per side (total 40 minutes to be thought of as a beginner). Talk with old school, old Chinese Xingyi guys and then talk about standing hours a day.
Oooo Zhan Zhuang The way I train/teach ZZ, how long you stand for is not as important as how "actively" you are standing. We use ZZ as the foundation point through the process of "softening the core" - this is a meditative/neigong system where we integrate the breath with releasing excess tension in stages; 1) Inhale Exhale, and direct the intention to releasing tension in the face and neck 2) Inhale Exhale, and direct the intention to releasing tension in the shoulders and elbows 3) Inhale Exhale, and direct the intention to releasing tension in the chest 4) Inhale Exhale, and direct the intention to releasing tension in the abdomen 5) Inhale Exhale, and direct the intention to releasing tension in the hips & upper legs 6) Inhale Exhale, and direct the intention to releasing tension in the knees & lower legs 7) Inhale Exhale, and direct the intention to releasing tension in the ankles & feet So, rather than trying to stand for X number of minutes, we go for reps of this cycle. If we feel ourselves building tension in order to hold the posture, we release it, shake out, then sit back in to the current posture we are working on. We use 5 basic postures for training; Wuji Taiji Man Heaven Earth Each posture puts works the body in a different way, helping us adapt the "softening the core" process to different shapes, angles etc As we play the taiji form, we may hold certain postures in order to go through "softening the core" to get an idea of how our bodies are responding to the postures. Later on, we play the form veeeeery slowly, beginning to "soften the core in motion", where we actively seek to release excess tension as we move. We also have two-person exercises to work on softening the core and ting-jin, as well as posture/frame testing. The ultimate aim being to be aware of how much force we need to apply to achieve our goal.
Time is just a guideline, not the objective. From a Xingyiquan perspective, this is why I find the whole standing in Santi Shi 5 minutes one side, then 5 minutes the other, repeat, add them up to get to 20 minutes, 30 minutes, etc. completely ridiculous and mostly useless. I add time when talking about standing to show how long it took "me" (others times will vary) to start feeling connections, does not mean I have reached my goal
I always say to my students "you'll get more out of doing a two or three reps of softening the core, and focusing on releasing tension, than you will from forcing yourself to stand as long as you can"
When I taught, I started with 3 maybe 5 minutes, only had them stand while comfortable, from there, build time. And building time is slow. But that was for ZZ. Santi Shi in Xingyiquan is different, more grueling, more painful. But I am not as old school as some who would have you stand till you drop. But again start with about 5 and build...slowly. I was never a fan of switching with Santi Shi 5+5+5+5=20...nope, it equals 5 IMO as far as SAntiis concerned. Start with 5, work to 6, then 7 etc, eventually you are at 20. But it takes time, weeks actually.
