Originally posted by ShadowDrakken There were a few large swords used in northern Europe that exceded 11 pounds, such as the claymore, but they were wielded by massive individuals and even then were fairly impractical -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- posted by Cudgel Not true Whiel thre were sword made of that size they were not made for battle being simple iron bars taht looked like swords, much like most the crap swords made today. They were for diplays and parades. looks like you said that cudgel. yet once again i will try and write that there was swords over 11lbs that were used in battle if you dont beleive me then why when most of the claymores were found ere they found on a battlefield in someones hand covered with blood? for someone to say that a sword over 11 lbs was made only for show is like saying that guns kill people when in reality guns dont do anything people kill people. Also we all know the main reason for the claymore when it was comprehended back in the highlands was to make the enemy fear the size of it hence they were made to be big.
um the reason large twohanded swords were made was two fold. Armor was getting heavier and more resistant to the lighter earlier swords. So they started grippign their one handed swords with both hands for more powerful blows. More people were fighting on foot. As more people began fighting on foot it allowed them to use swords and other weapons that were two large to be weilded from horse back with one hand. not because they were scary when people marched to battle they already eitehr plenty sacred as it was and couldnt get any more sacred or were hardened veterens that wouldnt be imtimtaded by the size of a weapon. umm they didnt weigh 11lbs which is what this discusion has become about. Yes big swords were used. No big sword used for battle weighed that much. So unless you can prove to me that an 11 pound sword was actually used in battle victoriously, you cant convince me that 11lb swords were used in battle. And I never said a sword that big couldnt kill i said they werent used for battle. ANd in battle you need not just beabel hit one person once but a whole lot of other people as well as defend youself with your sword as you can depend on your armor alone and you have no shield. Edited for spelling
here are links to threads that discuss swords and weight http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25651&highlight=sword+AND+weight http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=267467&highlight=sword+AND+weight#post267467 This oine is little more esoteric as it deals mostly with swordplay with longswords and great swords. http://forums.swordforum.com/showth...ge=25&highlight=sword and weight&pagenumber=3
sword weight Now if i am mistaken ,which i am not, the main reason for this thread has been the weight of swords that were used in battle. I dont know how many people think swords used in battle were only 8lbs and under but i have shown eveidence of 12 nodachi's (odachis) the biggest one of which is 377cm, 148.4251969 inches, 12.3687664 ft. (almost 12 and a half feet) and weighs 14.5kilograms (31.967028 pounds) now if my math is wrong (which it isnt) 31.9 pounds is very close to 32 pounds, all of the nodachi's on the link I have provided below were used in battle most of which were found on battlefields after feudal wars and are now in museums or shrines. I have also posted the link for the site on which i found the nodachis that were used in battle and i will post it one more time seeing as the first 2 times i posted it noone seemed to take the time to look at the link. Also when this thread wasn't about a certain type of sword and its length. It was about any sword that was used in battle their weight and their length which i have provided more then enough evidence. If after my post i am still being doubted by people the only reason for that would be that they didnt take the 2 seconds to click on the link i provided and read about the 12 nodachis. Also there was many more then 12 nodachis that were made either being called masamune or nodachi there was even a masamune that was used in the coronation ceremony of the Tokugawa Shogunate which was handed down to the first Tokugawa Shogun, leyasu who reigned from 1603 - 1605, from the owner Umanosuke, after that the masamune was used in the coronation ceremony up until it was handed over to the Tokyo police at then end of WW2 in 1945.
Above I wrote that the masamune was handed to leyasu from Umanosuke which it was not i apologize for typing too fast. The Honjo Masamune which was owned by Umanosuke was taken from Umanosuke after a war in the end of the 16th century in which his opponent lord Honjô Shigenaga defeated him and took the masamune. From then on lord Honjô Shigenaga sold the masamune to his younger brother Hidetsugu. Hidetsugu in turn passed the sword onto Shimazu Hyogo Yoshihiro who next passed the blade to Ieyasu, the first Tokugawa Shogun. Which from then on it was used in the coronation ceremony of every following Showgun in the Tokugawa Shogunate until it was surrendered to the Tokyo police at the end of 1945 by Tokugawa Iemasa. Here is a link to a site which briefly talks about the Tokugawa Shogunate http://artsword.esmartweb.com/shogun.htm the only downside of that link is that it doesnt go into detailed history.
well as you refuse to see reason I see no reason why I should continue trying to show the out right impossiblities of using a 11lb plus sword. ADn As I will never have the misfortune of seeing you, speaking with your f2f, or sparring, your opinion doesnt mattter to me. But one final thing from the website witht the odachi The purpose of Ôdachi The purpose of Ôdachi can be categorized as follows: a) As an offering to a Shrine or Gods. Some Ôdachi were dedicated with prayer to win a war, others were placed in Shrines as legendary swords from mythology. b) As a weapon. From explanations in old texts, such as "Heike-monogatari, Taihei-ki" tell us that Ôdachi were used by soldiers during battles. c) As a symbol for an army. Some Ôdachi are too long for practical use. They cannot be used in a battle but it is said that they could have been used as a symbol of an army, such as flags and spears. Further research is needed to confirm this idea. d) As a trend during a certain period. Some swords were also used for ceremonies. e) To show the swordsmith's skill. NOTE: Most Ôdachi were used for reason a) and b).
Cudgel i dont know where you get these ideas that a smith or smiths spent anywhere from one month up to 2 years to make a sword just for it to be used as decoration. Another fact - every single nodachi on the link i posted was used in a battle or many battles after which it was either found and kept in a museum or shine or a private collector found it and then a museum or shrine acquired them. There is no feesible reason that i can come up with that you cease to recognize the fact that there is swords such as the nodachi (or odachi) that are heavier then 8lbs any anywhere from 3ft. up to 12 and a half feet long (the link i posted about the largest nodachi found so far, i will post again as it seems the one person who doesnt want to beleive that a sword of this size was made didnt take the time to look at the link) - 1. Largest nodachi found to date - http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html 2. Link to nodachi gallery and brief info of every sword on the site - http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/odachi_gallery.html If after the above link has been gone too and you still seem to accept the fact a sword being heavier then 8lbs and up to 12 and a half ft long was createdand used in battle simply take the name of one of the nodachi swords on the above link either go to a library or research the sword by typing it into a search engine like www.google.com and read about the history of the sword. If still then people cease to beleive that a sword weighing more then 8lbs and up to as long as 12 and a half ft. was created and used in battle then you should be locked up in a padded room because you are ceasing to beleive facts about the most saught after and priceless japanese artifacts that were created. Once you get to the nodachi site, which i have posted the link to 3 times only to post it again in hopes that my point does get across that swords weighing more then 8lbs were created and there sole reason for being created was to be used in batle, look at every nodachi on that link. I have provided more then enough evidence that swords weighing more then 8lbs and up to as much as 12 and a half ft. long do exist and there main reason for being created was to be used in battle. I will proceed to post some of the evidence yet again that backs my statements - 1. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/hideyuki.html - "This Ôdachi has a chip in the cutting edge about 60cm from the base and has 3 scratches so it was most likely used in battle. Hideyuki was a great swordsmith of Bizen. This sword was commissioned by Shimizu Muneharu of Bichu Takamatsu Castle." 2. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/hoju.html - "This Ôdachi has is wider and thicker than usual. The curvature is also deeper than usual, making it look quite spectacular. The line of Hoju began possibly before the Heian era and continued into the Muromachi era." The main reason for the Hoju to make weapons whether they were swords spears or what not was to be used in battle. Which basically the Kamakura era (1185-1333) was a series of battles from the 12th century to the second quarter of the 14th century. 3. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/kanemitsu.html - "This Ôdachi displays the characteristics that were popular during the Nambokuchô period (1359). The blades changed as fighting methods did during this period. The forging of this Ôdachi is very even with no irregularities. Kanemitsu proves he was an extraordinary swordsmith. This Ôdachi was a treasure of the Uesugi family." Above it states the blades changed as did fighting methods of this period hence this odacchi was used in battle. Now if after looking at those 3 swords i have posted above, looking at the 11 swords on the Nodachi site (http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/odachi_gallery.html) and researching the history of any nodachi sword people still cease to beleive the fact that such swords were created and used in battle those people should be moved to a distant island and not be allowed to make contact with any human being ever again for all they are doing is making people dumber as well as themselves for ceasing to beleive facts that they dont want to hear.
oK this is my last post on this topic. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098 Read this but i doubt it will change your mind at all but at least you can try and sdiscuss it iwth these guys instrad of stupid ole me who cant use a library.
I admit i did get it from Rurouni Kenshin and i was just wondering if such a thing ever existed. I tried building a wooden one but it broke a part when i swung it. so thanks for the answer!
Epoch: You seem a bit bombastic. You state that light swords are just wallhangers and dangerous. I think it is the oposite. A medieval longsvord (including Claymores) are flexible and light. Scots were not particulary bigger than anybody else in medieval europe. Beeing a norwegian myself, a people that had strong ties to the scotts in the 900 - 1200 ad, I can for sure say that the viking sagas frequently braggs about especially big kings and heroes, but no sceletal findings in Scandinavia or England suggests that Vikings were any bigger or stronger than people elswere in Europe back then. The zweihenders -which historical ones can be found all over Europe in museums and castles and that actually was bigger than the Claymores -netther weigh more than say 3,5 kilo, and then we're talking about swords of up to 2m length -and even theese are targets of discussion on wether they were sermonial weapons or actually used in combat. You allso state the idiocy of making swords not ment for fighting... Have you ever heard of comerse? Basic capitalism of beeing spotted and noticed, earning a name and reputation was as important in 1400 Japan and Europe as it is today. Decoration of castles using armor and weapons was very popular in Medieval europe, and don't think for a second that old swords found in Europe -even sharp ones (the nobility in europe pulled out their ancestors swords from storage, polsihed them and sharpened them during the nationalromantic period (ca.1800) -nessecarily have been used in combat. You must neither dismiss the fact that other historical periods have empathised other traits of a weapon than we do today. A swedish Man-O'War made in the 1600's traded off several guns for tons of decoration on it's stern. It's unthinkable today to decorate F15's, it might not, had they been envented 400 years ago... If you buy this point, then you might allso follow me on this: To make a durable, light blade takes more effort than making a heavy durable blade. Therefore the heavy durable blade i the most likely option for the blacksmith if some nobledude orders 30 swords to decor his dininghall, don't you think? This can explain all the heavy historically blades you find around. They're ment for decoration -just as they are today, and others were made to put in the shop window. Then you have the beheaderswords. Yes they made swords especilally meant for beheading people, and they were often more similar to woodaxes in it's function than the sword despite the similarities. Wallhangers I've seen and swung around have all been much heavier than every "combatready" sword I've ever tried. 1handers weigh around 1kg, 2handers weigh around 2 -3 kg. I just have one question. Do you spar with swords weighing more than 4kg's (ca.8 pounds?) Me and a friend weighing 120kg (and it's NOT fat) spar with medieval longswords, and they weigh around 2,5 kg. My sword is a replica, a Paul Binnes blade, and it have cut hundreds of plastic bottles without bending. Actually, I've cut 2 inch branches in one cut with it, and I can flex it into an "U" shape, so I say it's rather flexy AND LIGHT. Now this isn't a historical blade, but every single blacksmith that makes blades that I have met and every reenacter sais that swords could be made as light as that in medieval europe. If we use heavier weapons, our wrists and backs would soon be ruined, and in combat, you would end up beeing so slow that an opponent with a lighter weapon will allways win. I have unfortunaly no pages to reffer you to, so you'll probably discard my oppinions, but for the rest of you lot I'd like to share my ecperiences with medieval longsword.
Stolenbjorn when did i ever state this???? - "Epoch: You seem a bit bombastic. You state that light swords are just wallhangers and dangerous. I think it is the oposite. A medieval longsvord (including Claymores) are flexible and light." I never once stated that light swords are dangerous and wallhangers, show me where i did say that. As i have many swords some old and some replicas (im not too into replicas because as history has proven they tend to be heavier then the actual sword the replica was modeled from was). Yes some longswords are light and some are heavy (depends on your meaning of heavy i think of heavy as 20lbs or more as i have held many bearing swords that exceed 20lbs) i do have 2 claymores one is 9 lbs one is 12 lbs i have trained with both of them with a friends. i agree however that when i first swung a 9lb sword (when i was 13) my wrist was sore from swinging it as the heavier the sword the more force it takes to swing. Now after training with heavier swords i am quite used to them and my wrists arent sore anymore. In my post on page 2 when i spoke of claymores i was speaking to Cudgel (because he said this - "The heaviest twohanded swords maxed out at 6 pounds") i replied to cudgels post saying that simpy is not true as i have seen many claymores that weigh more then 6 pounds which have been used in battle, heck i have one that weighs 12lbs which i might add is a replica of a museum piece and the museum piece was used in a battle which i spoke of on this site - http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098 I however dont discard your opinions in fact i appreciate that you actually took the time to write something and not just look at the first few lines and discard anything i say completely (like cudgel did many times) However as you will notice on this site - http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098 Cudgel (Ian Wooley on sword forum) tries to say that nodachi's were never used in battle when on this page - http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098 He has no evidence of any kind whatsoever that any of those 2 of those sword werent used in battle. Which in fact if you follow the conversation on that page he ends up not saying anything alltogether because he knows very well he has no evidence to disprove anything i said. He also know that if he continues to discard everyhitng i say that on that forum he will make an ass out of himself because he has no proof whatsoever.
Well, it seems I must have misread you; sorry. I went back to search, but didn't find it now. I think we can agree on this: Some weapons are light Some weapons are heavy The question is: how heavy can a weapon be and still be of practical use? I think the huge japaneese blade you gave a link to must have been to cumbersome to wield, and I would from my own experience and from associates whoose oppinions I greatly respect put my mony on that this blade is either meant to be a demonstration of a given blacksmith's abilities, or meant for some seremony. But it is impossible to prove that it was used in either way (unless you happen to have a time machine parked on the lawn)!
HEy epcoh if you wish to post my name plese SPELL it correctly. Its WOOLLEY not WOOLEY I never out right discarded your opinion Any ways I jusdt disagreed on whether certain swords were made to used in battle or were just exhibitons of skill.
Stolenbjorn when i posted the link on this site (and on swordforums.com) - http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098 as i said in mypost on this site the main reason for the post entitled "zanbatou" was that someone wanted to know if it did indeed exist, how could it be used, how heavy is it and how long is it. In which someone mentioned a no-dachi (as seen on the first page of this exact thread) then someone (Cudgel on the second page) replied with this - Originally posted by ShadowDrakken There were a few large swords used in northern Europe that exceded 11 pounds, such as the claymore, but they were wielded by massive individuals and even then were fairly impractical -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Cudgel Not true Whiel thre were sword made of that size they were not made for battle being simple iron bars taht looked like swords, much like most the crap swords made today. They were for diplays and parades. The heaviest twohanded swords maxed out at 6 pounds and thosea re still heavy. I KNow i handled one aobut year ago one heavy sword. Adn the indivuals who would have weiled these massive swords were proabably around 6-6 and half feet tall weighing proabably 180 -200 pounds. not to terribly massive. Notice above in the dircect quote from Cudgel on page 2 (of this same thread) that he says this - "The heaviest twohanded swords maxed out at 6 pounds and thosea re still heavy. I KNow i handled one aobut year ago one heavy sword." Now if we go by what cudgel says there was no such thing as a sword that exceeded 6 lbs. In which my reply to the above statement was to show that there were swords created (ie nodachi and many, many other swords which exceeded 6 lbs in weight) Case in point as we notice on what was said by cudgel in the quote above he said this - "The heaviest twohanded swords maxed out at 6 pounds and thosea re still heavy.." Notice that nowhere in Cudgel's post did he specify if the swords he was speaking of were actually used in battle or not, he also didnt specify as to if he meant swords from all around the world or from a certain country, he simply said that the heaviest two handed swords maxxed out at 6 lbs. He didnt specify when he should have. Thus my intentions were to prove him wrong as all he would accomplish is to confuse people. Hence when i posted this nodachi link - http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/odachi_gallery.html and then went the extra step to find the longest Nodachi on that site - http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html (Keep in mind that Cudgel never specified as to whether this so called two handed sword that maxxed out at 6 lbs was used in battle or not) (therefore from his post we gather him saying there was not a sword created which exceeded 6lbs). Now on that site the 226.7cm Norimitsu Nodachi may have been used in battle or it may not i do not know as i dont have the time to fly to Japan for no reason as nobody is allowed to touch the sword except for the museum staff. (Keep in mind my intention of showing the longest nodachi found as of yet was NOT to show it being the longest one which was used in battle, HOWEVER my intention was to show that a sword over 6lbs in weight was created and still exists today) Now on the same Nodachi site which i have provided there is 3 swords (which I have been told by the museum in which the swords are kept, also i have been told by the Nodachi Gallery, as well as 18 sword collectors who deal specifically in japanese swords That these 3 swords have bee used in battle). These are the 3 swords which i have been told over and over again have been used in battle - 1. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/hideyuki.html 2. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/hoju.html 3. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/kanemitsu.html Now on those 3 Nodachis i e-mailed this site - http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/odachi_gallery.html, i then e-mailed the museum in which those swords are kept, as well as 18 sword collectors (many of which agreed that out of those nodachi swords these 3 were used in battle) Also Stolenbjorn if you follow the conversation on this site - http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098 You will notice that while Cudgel is debating with me over whether or not the swords are real and whether or not the 3 nodachi i posted above were or weren't used in battle you may notice that while he is debating he never once has any proof which discards anything i have posted all he has is his opinions, which are unthoughtful and hypocritical. If you continue to follow the conversation on - http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098 You may notice that it gets to a point where i quiestion this so called proof that cudgel has which disproves everyhthng i have said and after questioning him he simply says nothing for he knows that all will happen is he will make a fool out of himself for he lacks any form of proof alltogether.
Cudgel however your name is spelled i simply dont care because you never thought to yourself how you might be confusing people had i not straightened the problem out and proven you wrong. As for you saying you never outright disregarded my opinions you did many many times as we can see on this site as well on swordforums.com when i posted something and you made a reply, if we read over your replies (on this and swordforums.com) it comes to mind that you didnt even look at what i posted you simply tried to discard everything i said because you were wrong. Also here some advice Cudgel when you tell me to go to a site like swordforums.com its a good idea to have some evidence which disproves anything i have said.
Epoch; no hard feelings, but your posts are becoming a bit long, and my english isn't that good. I think you mean this: Swords vary greatly in weight, but it's very unlikely that any of the heavier ones were ever used in combat as they would be both ineficcient, cause long time injuries to muscles, joints, senes and sceleton and prove fatal. Do I understand you right? If so, we agree.
Stolenbjorn sorry about my posts being so long. Swords do vary greatly in weight i have seen 1lb 110z katanas up to 32 lb Nodachis (the longest nodachi that i posted before many many times) As for it being unlikely that any of these heavier swords were used. That would depend on your meaning of the word heavy as many people on this site obviously have a different meaning for the word heavy. To me 12lbs is nothing because i have swung the claymore i have many many times which weighs 12lbs. Whereas some people would consider anything over 6 lbs to be heavy i do not. Also keep in mind there is no physical proof that states the longswords which weigh over 20lbs were used or wren't. I agree that if someone was to go from a 3 lb blade to a 12lb blade without first training with it they would be sore and possibly even hurt themselves. But i didnt say that heavier swords werent used in war. Fact is in this thread someone doubted as to if a Nodachi existed at all i disproved that theory many times showing they were created. I even went farther as to show that some nodachis were used in battle (note i said SOME not all). Fact is the only way you could get proof as to if a sword such as the nodachi was used in battle would be to ask the museum which had the nodachi their opinion if they think it was used in battle or not.
