"You're doin it wrong..." AKA Take me back PR I didn't mean it baby...

With the recent "Evolution" thread, it's become increasingly clear that people who study this art still don't understand what it's Major Definite Expression is supposed to be. It's as if they believe Soke to be crossing his fingers behind his back and snickering when he says things like; "It should be like walking", "Should take no more force than opening a door", "move freely", "become zero" or when he talks about things like; "kieru no kankaku" or "nawa no kankaku", respectively "disappearing from the senses" and "the sensation of being wrapped up/rope", or "controlling the kuukan"> can't think anybody less equipped to adequately elaborate on this idea but the TOS states that if I use a foreign word I have to post translation. I feel it's a cop out for me to j ust say "void space", rather I feel it better to give my interpretation with the strong caveat that I really know jack and schtall about it, but here goes... Kuukan- The all enveloping three dimensional workspace, including the measure of of constantly shifting relative space between objects on a macro and micro scale, which also includes subspaces within the exchange. Kuukan balls be-damned!

There was a post in the aforementioned thread that I feel does a solid job of ironing out key points with regard to the "Expression".

I could see how the vantage you have from "Yama no Thundercat" can make conversation with those don't share that vantage a frustrating endeavor. While I have mainly found your tone distasteful in the past, I've been going back through old threads and regardless of your tone in any thread, you're giving what I consider to be correct information. Please consider this an apology...
From down here, studying this art is like walking through a dark room with a lighter that's out of fluid. Only the occasional spark to illuminate what's going on. The occasional moment of clarity in class, or at a seminar. The rest of the time spent stumbling blind, but with a receding memory of what the room looked like when we could see.

I can't help but want to punch myself in the face with every embu where schools delight the audience with the Kihon Happo. The Kihon Happo is a training tool. It is not the art. To showcase the art, you should be showing what gets built into you from these tools, because that's the reality. The art, is the expression of the lessons physically, not simply performing the lessons themselves. This is why everyone says "look it's obvious you guys don't really fight or whatever", because anytime anyone asks for an example of this art, the only thing we seem to be able to present is Omote gyaku kote no kata or another equivalent bare structure training tool.
I play guitar. If someone asks me to play something, I'll usually do some combination of minor blues 1st/4th/5th with intermittent improvisational minor pentatonic leads. I don't just play scales for them. I don't do "the worm" exercise and call it music.

Now I wouldn't be able to do any of that without first spending a lot of time practicing using tools like scale and chord progression exercises, but when it comes time to actually play, I have to let all that go. They're still kind of there because they're a part of me, neurologically, and because of that...music comes out. Intellectual understanding is bolstered by the physical practice but not so much the other way around.

Here's another example of someone completely missing the point...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=visioCFH7II"](Dantey) San bao kung fu vs (Joseph) Ninjutsu 2010 - YouTube[/ame]

Now I don't wish the guy any ill will and good for him for getting out there, but this is an example of kickboxing and scrapping from stances that lend well to neither. Bussey style hopping "high energy ninjutsu" is an example of what happens when you've been trained by all previous examples to think of this as "what fighting/combat is". 100% reactionary, no leading, no angling everything the ninjutsu guy is doing is obvious everytime he moves. He's meeting his opponent in the potential future with no idea where that might be and as such will never be able to lead a committed attack out of him, take balance or apply even the simplest technique. All well and good to have a guard stance but it should be useful for it's purpose, otherwise you're just standing there getting the crap kicked out of you in a pretty, but otherwise useless posture.

"But wait Carl", you say. What about all those videos that get posted where people are dancing around in the space doing Hatsumi-like movement like the oft-derided "Bujnkan 2008 Daikomyosai Review"?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0uSElFrD5k"]Bujinkan 2008 DKMS Review - YouTube[/ame]

Well, I say in response, it was poorly performed. But then I sound like crap sometimes when I play improv leads. That said, there's one or two moments there that aren't bad and I can see what they were indending to apply/convey. Understand that, in a learning setting where all these videos tend to take place, the teachers aren't presenting the information in the frame of "These are awesome techniques, we're gonna be learning them today", Even Soke doesn't do this. Instead these are presented as "Hey this is a thing, see if you can do something like this", the implied is that you do it using the framework you've built into yourself through dedicated practice, not "copy this directly". In the realm of spontaneous and improvisational martial arts, the same technique won't happen the exact same way, making transmission difficult. I think this is what is meant by "You have to steal my art".

In one of the Solkan Europe vids Arnaud Shihan quotes soke as saying something to the effect of.."I'm not teaching this, I'm only showing you that this exists" and to me, the purpose of the lesson is to find it. Experience it, because until you do, it's pantomime.


tl;dr You're doin it wrong...

 

I'd like to see it changed to "where a trained fighter with conditioned responses, who recognizes your fighting ability and is concerned about the damage you might do to him" is most likely to attack.

Bubba, however, doesn't really give a damn.

 

Kind of my point though. If my opponent is unconcerned with my response, he will be less likely to "feel me out" with feints and dancing around. A committed attack will be more likely, and in my estimation, closer to the scenarios we train under.

A big issue comes from the fact that our training scenarios kind of require that people are good play-actors with regard to honest response. They usually aren't. You enter with fudoken from the under left side of the jaw and they throw their head wildly around as if you're electrocuting them.. It's bizzare.

Edit: I see you were referencing the Daikomyosai vid, I don't think it's necessary that the opponent respect your fighting prowess. I think the operating mechanism they're attempting to display is the kind of reaction that happens when you accidentally shoulder-check the door-jamb. Not, "oh no my opponent is doing something.. BAIL OUT BAIL OUT"... Though I can see how that can be misconstrued from the example.

 

Nope, didn't even watch it.

 

Fair enough, martial prowess aside if somebody throws you a frisbee and you don't look until the very last second, your reaction when you do look will be similar whether your a pipsqueak or a badass and whether the person that threw it is a pipsqueak or a badass.

 

Not necessarily.

 

A sense of urgency to escape coupled with dread in the realization that it's too late. Not necessarily? I have this image in my head of a biker just turning square and taking a frisbee to the eyes/bridge of the nose like a boss... Also, biker playing frisbee.

 

That's right, not necessarily.

A former colleague of mine threw a chair right in the face of a junkie who pulled a knife on him. He just shrugged it off and walked away.

 

Did the junkie see it coming? Or did he realize a chair was flying into his face at the last possible second? Did parts of the chair connect with his shoulder or abdomen before it could enter his threatening area near the brain? These things matter and are not neutral to the exchange. Otherwise Soke would just throw chairs at people and call it budo..

 

As is the case with whom happens to be throwing the frisbee, and how.

 

Next time pick a better chair.

Or use taijutsu.

Anyway, this thread got hijacked so pffft.

 

Care to help "un-hijack" it?

 

I would but he's so sure he's right it appears pointless.

And as you state in the OP some people go off on one only making it abundantly clear they do not understand the art.

(Awaits incoming fire)

 

I'm always open to persuasion by way of superior arguments.

 

The purpose of the thread really. Kagete strikes me as someone who sees value in the method but can't reconcile a deficiency he sees. I don't think he's wrong in seeing it, I just think he'd be better helped training under instructors with similar experience. They would bring a perspective in the lessons that one might find lacking in your standard Bujinkan school. Also it's very important that we talk about him as if he's not in the room...

 

I pretty much agree with the OP.

Alot of people see what soke does and, like you say, dismiss it as they do not see how he does it.

Which is a shame.

Others try the art for a few years, cannot make it work, and blame the art. Off they trot to "modernise it".

This is probably the hardest thing of all to try to explain. I have tried so many times but I don't seem to have words for it. I would add that there is some component of playing with time, moving in such a way that you create ample time for yourself, where normally you would be dealing with split second timing. You create spaces where teki cannot reach you, cannot move his feet to, or feels that he cannot reach. And more, much more.

I was playing with a kukishinden waza the other day where you take the sleeve and strike then step behind him to sweep the leg (ok not an accurate description). Without the correct(ish) use of the sleeve grab to control his weight, very slightly, and also using the strike to open the space to you to step in unhindered, uke can easily counter. With correct control he is helpless while you basically take your time. Resistance just makes it easier.

If you try move in before the strike, the kukan is not "enlarged", not yours, uke can resist to foil you.

Just an example - yes a bad one.

 

Lol true, I do apologise.

Soz Kagete

 

All I'm saying is that people tend to underestimate what it takes in order to establish control over other people, especially those without Takamatsuden conditioning.

The solution, as I see it, is fairly simple - we should be spending as much time on taking away people's balance, as we should on countering their attempts to regain said balance. EDIT: Generally, we don't, and this is sad.

You don't strike me as a person interested in intentionally insulting others for no reason, so no, I would appreciate if you talked to me directly instead.

 

This is what alot of people here have been talking about and you've been arguing against it!!! Yesterday you said I don't train right if I think that that works. Control balance and the person has a hard time. Even a psycho.

"Generally we dont"? Who doesn't? Again, exactly the opposite point you have previously argued.

Hmmm and you don't go around trying to insult people? You try to make belittling comments pretty often.

I may be mistaken but haven't you just come back from a ban for insults?

Do you read your posts before/after you send them?

 

No, we're not talking about the same thing. See below.

I would say that most people don't practice counters in a sophisticated manner on a regular basis. You tell the average Bujinkan practitioner to counter a technique and the most likely response you'll get is having him tense up as all hell - which is fine as long as the other guy is weaker and less skilled than you.

It's myopia, hypocrisy and pointless hostility that draws my ire, not simple disagreement. Big difference between that and how people act towards me for merely seeing things from a different perspective.