I had to carry this over from another post...and ask the question: When you practice, do you do the norm of static kicks, punches and blocks as well as the hyung du jour...or do you mix it up and get creative? When it comes to our forms, allbeit any martial art forms, I believe (and this is what I wrote on the other thread): ...I think of the pattern or "form" as a door or gateway into realigning the neuromuscular / synaptic pathways in efforts to bring the individual martial artist into the realization that the development of movement with or without a weapon is a natural thing. Ergo, since it [martial arts movements and strikes] is not something done on a daily basis by the population, when a new student begins training, forms must be introduced in order to re-write the brains’ programming. Eventually, someone would have to tell that student that the form itself is NOT the end-all, (because most don’t get it) but merely the “device” used to make him/her understand that kicks, punches, stabs and blocks can but arranged into a symphony of combat reality…and with the influence of a training partner or opponent, can also lead to the development of true warrior skill which could one day be battlefield tested and proved. Problem is, most just practice the forms they know and leave it to that. I remember beginning to put my own forms together and creating different combinations of movements to mimic an invisible battle early on as a blue belt. My practice and understanding of KS grew immensely from then on. So all this to say, man, if you are not making up your own forms, you are limiting your own potential! :hat:
Sorry, it's hard enuff for me to remember the formsw I'm being tought......However if I left the "won" I would be tempted to. So now that you are out, do you teach "your" forms or are you still teaching what you were tought in KSW and TKD ? Or.......is your Master dictating your corriculum? BY the way, He is one COOL DUDE !
Yeah, Master white is pretty cool. I was doing my own forms while I was still in the Won. Now that I am on my own, I teach the same curriculum with no secrets...and my teacher doesn't dictate what I do or teach, he only checks "my" training to ensure I am to his standard, which is a tough one!
Yeh Ki Power, I think I get what you are saying it's about muscle memory. that is how I like to explain it. Your forms, techniques, Kicking, Punching, Falling are all part of training your body and mind to perform instinctively. IMO you can't achieve muscle memory without repitition. But that doesn't mean only doing the ten or so hyung within the curriculum. While the techniques and hyung are a good start a practitioner should mix it up a little to explore other combinations. FWIW
Freedom of expression... It is my belief that whilst set patterns of movements (forms, hyung) may serve a purpose in the early stages of training, they become less relevant as time goes on. Some systems, such as Hapkido, for example, often don't bother with them at all, and their students still manage to function ok. If I was to be entirely negative about forms, I could say that they are a useful way to 'pad out' the curriculum and individual training sessions. I won't go that far, however, as I too believe that they can be a useful exercise, especially when training alone. They can also aid concentration and focus of course. Once all movements have become assimilated and as natural as walking, however, an individual should be able to move freely without the constraints of a set pattern. This freedom to express oneself may not suit everyone though. It's a bit like walking to the top of a large hill, or medium sized mountain. Most people will stick to the well-worn paths trodden by the many others before them. Some others will, however, prefer to venture from those set paths and discover a route of their own to the summit. P.S. I look forward to meeting you some day perhaps Liam. I am an old friend of your instructor, so do please pass on my best wishes to him the next time you see him.
a little :topic: This is one of the reasons why KSW is different from the other systems/ styles. The hyung in KS beome more relevant in your training as time goes on. examples: At 2nd dahn you learn Kyuk Pa (Breaking) hyung, in this form the student learns how to maintain their energy over many targets. At master their is Oon hak Hyung, a hyung that explores the many animal inspired offensive and defensive movements of KS. While yes these lessons are taught earlier in the curriculum, they aren't expanded on till the higher ranking hyung.
Well, once Bruce W Sims gets wind of this thread, I'm sure he can expound on the influence of hyung better than me... But I've always wanted to believe the TALL TALE that hyung was a way to transfer information about MA to those who were illiterate. And while not as avid a Ki training enthusiast as my instructor, I've heard rumors that after excelling in advanced Ki movement throughout the body with static postures, moving postures (i.e. hyung) are the next step. This is why exact body position (stances as well as transitional movement) is SO important when learning hyung. The wrong alignment can impede the flow of Ki. But in order to embrace this philosophy, one would have to be not so skeptical of certain claims about what Ki entails. The other stuff already mentioned WRT muscle memory, etc. is of course, also viable *truths* to take into consideration. So hyung seems to have MANY things to offer an accomplished MAist. :thinking:
Makes sense! I mean, look at the deliberate movements and motions of Tai Chi. I regularly practice as slow as possible to ensure my movement is precise and the breath follows the flow and the flow follows the breath...another reason I believe a Vinyasa Flow Yoga like Ashtanga is a perfect marriage for an internal art like Kuk Sool!
Formless Forms Is that so? Don't you feel that is a somewhat arrogant statement? How many other systems have you practised in order to have come up with that opinion? Or are you simply relying on what someone else has told you? Anyway, back to the idea of set forms setting you free... The following video clip shows clearly why it is important to express yourselves freely (occasionally at least), and also not to expect or rely on your teacher to 'teach' you everything. Your teacher is a guide, a pointer in the direction of the 'truth'. For one to reach that 'truth', that pinnacle, one has to constantly strive towards perfection. There are no short cuts. No instant goals. Yes it's true, the path may be simpler for some, but it is still necessary to put in the time, make the efforts, towards your goal - the goal of perfect technique. Despite the WKSA mantra, 'We Need More Practice', I remind you that 'practice' does not make perfect! Only 'perfect practice' makes perfect. Is this guy's technique perfect? No, of course it's not. It still falls well short of what is potentially achievable. Having said that, his skill and technique in handling the Baton [look at the way he balances it between his hands without holding it at times] should be an inspiration for us all to go out and see if we can emulate even his performance level and skill, let alone perfection itself: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTS2xhTZUD8&NR=1"]YouTube - BATON CANNE[/ame]
A 'mantra' itself, as I can't begin to tell you how many times I heard MY instructor say that. And while I admit it's a catchy saying, I think it's better to rephrase it and say, "Practice doesn't make perfect, only PRECISE practice makes perfect." But then, maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist. :jester: I hate to have to burst your bubble, but no MAist with a lick of sense would want to use his weapon without a FIRM grip on it. The twirling done in kuk-sool allows for passes to be made from one hand to the other while maintaining COMPLETE control over your weapon (if not, then you're doing it WRONG!). Remember it's meant to DEFLECT an opponent's weapon away from you, so if you don't have a firm grip, you'll end up unarmed. Don't get me wrong, as I think the video shows that the guy is extremely FAMILIAR with his weapon, much like the Wild West performer who can unholster his handgun to shoot coins tossed up into the air, then twirl it on his finger and flip it back into the holster. But I don't need to waste my time trying to teach students to balance a stick on their noses as if they were a circus clown.
Bursting bubbles, or blowing smoke? I'm entirely familiar with Kuk Sool staff twirling thanks, and was probably twirling a staff before you were a twinkle in your Daddy's eye. You also missed my point entirely about the guy in the video. I posted it to show his relaxed focus and concentration, along with him knowing the exact balance point of his weapon - DO YOU THINK HE CAN'T HOLD IT TIGHTLY WHEN HE NEEDS TOO?:bang:
Let's keep the peace gentlemen! An important thing to remember is this is a "discussion" forum where debate is welcome, but there is no need for "my daddy's gun is bigger than your daddy's gun"! Both Pugil and Unknown-KJN make very good points. While on the note of forms setting us free, Pugil's ref. to the baton guy is perfect...he's basically become "one" with his weapon...while on the other hand, Unknown-KJN points out that when setting oneself "free", important to retain the basic principles as well. An example I might use would be U.S. Marine Corps Close Order Drill with a Rifle...Recruits in Boot Camp learn to manuever their weapon with precision and "snap & Pop", and on the flipside, The U.S. Marine Corps Silent Drill Platoon does the same basic routines with extravagant throws, twirls, twists, and other awesome displays of drill techniques...but it all stems from the basics. I like to think of what my teacher would tell me after I finally had a new form memorized..."Now Make It YOURS!"
I like that statement because thats really the key to MA IMO. When people talk about how one MA is better than another or watered down over time, I think it is ...in the eyes of the beholder. Each person learns the basics from thier teachers and it is up to the student to put thier stamp on it. Its like other arts WRT acceptance from others, one could **** his name in the snow and call it "art" who's to say its not. People throw paint at a canvas and sell it for thousands of dollars, I don't get it; but it's not important that I do, evidentally some people like that type of art and pay big bucks for it. Now I know WRT MA that effectivness in technique should be the goal but some people may just want to do it for exercise and health benefits hoping never to have to use it for real thats ok by me, who am I to judge. Thier are far more benefits to training MA then just kicking someones butt. FWIW
Funny you should mention that. I had a similar saying, that anyone can "know" a technique, but "owning" a technique (or form) took lots & lots of practice. I guess one of the things that occurs when you reach master level tends to make your perspective about the MA more or less similar to others who have also reached master level. But don't worry about me being *offended* by Pugil's "twinkle in your daddy's eye" comment, as he apparently thinks he's the ONLY old hairy ape on this forum. He probably got PO'd after I stated the *obvious* flaw about the video he used to illustrate his point and didn't bother to read the second paragraph of my post. What I described takes as much drilling and practice as what Ki_Power mentioned (I think there's a 5-minute YouTube video of the The U.S. Marine Corps Silent Drill Platoon, commemorating some milestone in the corps' history, and it shows bits & pieces of their routine performed all over, including locations like the Grand Canyon - an awesome clip if I ever saw one). I get it, and even mentioned it. But IMO that baton twirling video illustrates FAMILIARITY with one's weapon, rather than EXPERTISE (likewise, the Silent Drill Platoon doesn't demonstrate MARKSMANSHIP with their exhibitions). Forgive me if I choose not to ASSUME such a thing, as I didn't see that ability demonstrated in the video, and I've never, ever seen this guy before and know absolutely nothing about him. So maybe he can, and maybe he can't. If YOU (Pugil) know for sure that he can, then I'll take your word for it. Otherwise it's just conjecture. And correct me if I''m wrong, but aren't you (Pugil) the one on here advocating that hyung practice is for (forgive the pun) monkeys, and that *wasting time* practicing hyung actually stifles any *true* MAist? If so, then why would anyone need to *play around* with their weapon like they're a circus clown? More importantly, why should an instructor bother with such endeavors? Once I get a student to successfully execute certain basic skills, it then becomes the *responsibility* of that student to carry it to the next level (whatever that student deems "the next level" to be). Wouldn't you agree? :dunno:
Obvious flaw!!! Ok, let me also suggest to you that there is clearly an 'obvious flaw' in the way the Dan Bong is used in Kuk Sool - or perhaps it's called Dahn Bong nowadays! When I learnt the form, I was taught to hold that weapon with a loose grip, holding mainly with finger and thumb, but along with closing the other fingers around the weapon in order to make a snapping strike. As for the guy in the video, I know for a fact - repeat, for a fact - that he does NOT do pre-arranged sparring sets. But rather, he spars freely with his weapon. So yes, he does indeed know how to hold on to it and use it. As for me "...advocating that hyung practice is for (forgive the pun) monkeys, and that *wasting time* practicing hyung actually stifles any *true* MAist?", if you read an earlier post of mine you will actually see that I said: "...I too believe that they can be a useful exercise, especially when training alone. They can also aid concentration and focus of course. Here is another guy who seems to be familiar with his staff, although - heaven forbid! - I see that he keeps letting go of it too: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa4lnKn8Qkk&feature=channel_page"]YouTube - LONG STICK DEMONSTRATION[/ame]
Oh yes, and before you feel the need to pull me up on that one too, that last video clip does indeed show a guy using a long stick, or short staff, rather than a mid-to-long length staff as you might normally use.
WRT Hyung, I am aware that, certainly in Japanese Arts and their Kata, the founders of their Budo saw Kata as being almost one of the most important aspects of the Art, and would practice them even after many, many years of practice a the highest level, even the most basic Kata. Even after many years they still found out new things and insights into how to move, that would allow them to utilise this in practice. I am also aware that even in the most basic techniques and forms there is always some insight that can be gleaned, as can be demonstrated in some of the writings and teachings of some of the Japanese Masters in their Budo. I know this is Korean MA but do not the same basic principals and tennents hold true? Although we don't use Hyung, or Kata on the street, if we were unfortunate to get into a fight, is it fair to say that Hyung still offer insight into the practitioner no matter what the "Grade" or mastery of the art, or how long they have practiced. And therefore we should practice them as though "our lives depended on it"? Just a thought.
I really liked the earlier comment about the Silent Drill Team and would use that as an example of how not to confuse the goals of one sort of form with that of another. Demo forms certainly lend themselves to more innovation as do training forms. However, teaching and combat forms have a bit different goals and ought to be adhered to more closely. Certainly this makes for a bit of boredom and tedium in one's practice but I suspect thats the price one pays for doing things correctly. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
I wouldn't consider either of those vidios a hyung, IMO they are demonstrations of bong spinning techniques. As I understand a hyung is a series of offensive and defensive movements connected to help the practioner develope his balance, speed and power. Bong spinnig techniques are for developing handling and control of the weapon. Those vidios are a good representation of control and dexterity IMO for what it is, it's very good. FWIW
