What do you want / exspect from an assosiation, and what are you willing to pay for it? If you owne a school and one ( or a feuw ) of your high ranking students wanted to open their owne schools, what would you offer them and how much would you charge? What type of controel over corriculum would you want? Please keep to the positive.
Answering this question is highly dependent on several different factors. The most important one being, which MA or what type of system is being offered. I realize that this was posted in the Kuk Sool portion of MAP, but let me elaborate just for the sake of argument. When asian MA first became popular in the USA, almost all MA schools offered some sort of JMA, whether it was primarily judo or mostly karate (recall that back then, some karate-do styles still emphasized jiu-jistu elements). Later, but not too long after, TKD and styles of that ilk hit the scene, and many people flocked to MA schools of this flavor for the flashy kicking that was taught (including Bruce Lee, which he used only for his movies). Other styles soon flooded the market, including HKD, AKD, kenpo/kempo, etc. This gave some people pause when trying to decide just which type of MA would best fit their needs. Then CMA started to *come out of the closet* and further confused & confounded the would-be MA students as to what style/system they should choose. The free enterprise aspect of capitalism allowed any self-proclaimed MA expert to hang out a shingle and set up business. So how to lure prospective clients into YOUR establishment was usually less about the quality of the type of MA that was offered and more about political aspects such as affiliations with certain MA organizations that eventually were generated as a natural by-product due to the success of a string of schools centered around a particular type/style of MA. No longer could a *lone-wolf* MA instructor do as well as an affiliated school with prestigious credentials bestowed by some parent organization with purported power, knowledge, and ethics. The fact that there were many con-men who signed up a bunch of students, collected advance tuition, then skipped town (without paying rent on the facility either) didn't help matters any. This type of fly-by-night operation also made it difficult for honest yet non-affiliated MA instructors to convince the public they could be trusted. This led to many independent MA masters to seek out MA organizations that would accept them with "no strings attached." That is, as long as the master paid whatever fee was required to be accepted into the MA association, there would be no political pressure to conform to anything but ethical business practices, with no demands as to the ethos of MA taught. However, the number of such *umbrella* organizations was few, especially ones that weren't suspect of shady business dealings. Most MA organizations tended to clamber toward a particular style of MA. This brings us to the way things are handled today, and the situation with umbrella organizations is relatively unchanged. There are many MA schools, who in an attempt to be everything to everybody, have established eclectic curricula. First, let me point out that it is very time-consuming for a MA advocate to adequately pursue several different styles to the point of mastery and as a result, seldom do they effectively combine the various elements into a cohesive art form. IMO this is a major drawback with eclectic styles of MA. I also feel that KSW (or just plain kuk-sool?) is an exception to most eclectic styles that are out there, and why many people who have achieved BB status in other MA are willing to *start over* at white belt (as far as KSW/WKSA is concerned). I have never much embraced the business aspects of MA, preferring the artistic aspects more. I do understand that certain guidelines need to be established in order for things to run smoothly. However, since no one can force me to teach if I don't want to, I see no problem with instituting the old saying, "I reserve the right to refuse service to you." Certainly, once a student follows your instructions and adheres to any rules you might have, long enough to become a black belt, there should have developed a certain amount of trust along the way. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I believe in not withholding knowledge if you are to be considered a teacher. I know this contradicts my previous statement about refusing to teach, but only if you discount the factor of TRUST that I also mentioned. Likewise with disseminating MA skills & knowledge, I (surprisingly?) hold similar views about helping any students who might wish to follow a similar path as my own, and I would gladly point them toward being as noble as possible in their pursuit of teaching MA. What I mean by this, is once striking out on their own, that I would be there if they wanted or needed advice, but I would not try to LORD over their endeavors as an entrepreneur. If things were to escalate and my business grew to a point where there were many, many instructors asking me for advice, I'd be pretty dumb not to charge consultation fees of some sort, right? But until that happens, I'm not going to worry about it. Sorry I made you read all of this only to not provide a definite answer (i.e the exact amount I would charge), but not only do I see that as a personal matter between myself and my student(s), but as previously stated, I haven't needed to formulate such things yet with my current business. It is nice to DREAM, however.
That's a cheap dig, Dave. Besides, Matt already has dibs on that great sig of his, "i can't spell, but i can kick ass!" So what's poor KSstudent supposed to do? If I complained about all the misspellings and grammatical errors I see here every day, I'd never mange to get away from my keyboard. :woo:
You got me there Dave, I look at what I write, know it looks wrong, but just can't spell. Thanks for pointing it out though. Any other sugestions or comments? There have many comments on what is "fair" ( or not ) in the WKSA, just looking for what one would consider a resonable trade.
A BIG thing for me would be free or very low cost "testing" for everything over 1st dahn. I see no issue with testing through the gups, and up to 1st dan for a profit, but after that c'mon...Its simply illogical for the testing fee to go UP for many reasons...But I digress.
:topic: it was a joke. nothing more, nothing less. ironically, i had to edit the original post as i had misspelt a word
Well, I think for me It seems more logical to test for the gup levels for "free" and charge for the dan levels for the simple reason that one should be able to start instructing and charging for thier services. That may be in a form of working at a dojang, or starting thier own school. I guess its all point of view.
That is an interesting point of view. However, along the same lines, gup testing fees often provide a large part of the revenue for school (smaller ones especially), and the gup levels are where the most important, foundation learning takes place. After 1st dan (in almost all arts) the curriculum drops off immensely, your progress is less reliant on your instructor, and more on your own personal practice and research. At this point you are dedicating time, and effort to spreading your art, and your association (if you are indeed instructing). Thus you are giving more to your teacher/art, and most likely receiving less (than you were up to 1st dan), so why do you need to give out more $ wise? IMHO paying $350 for a piece of paper is crazy, let along going up from there... :hat:
If what is paid for is, indeed, just a piece of paper, you're right on. That would be crazy:meditate:
Spelling The way some words are spelt in the UK (as against the US) can also lead to disagreement over the way some words are spelt. We also use the same word to mean different things - 'fanny' being a great example! I remember an American visitor to Cambridge shocking the train Guard when she announced, "Oh my God, I just left my fanny pack on your train!" When I type on here, or in my email outbox (for example), any words with suspect spelling are underlined in red. I'm pretty sure that's true for all of us - right? In which case, simply highlight the word, hold down the control (ctrl) button and click on the word (on a Mac at least), and then look up the word in your dictionary. Unless you've spelt it really badly, you should at least get the suspected correct spelling come up.
Did IE add this feature after Firefox had it? Last I knew, the automatic spelling check was browser dependent. But I do most of my surfing on Firefox anymore. Also, dictionaries can be of limited use when dealing with one's non-prime language. English has gobbled up words from so many sources, that the words we choose offer many subtleties of meaning. These shades of gray can be very difficult for an ESL speaker to pick out.
Diversity is the spice of life... Ok, a couple of points: Firstly, I prefer to use the term 'system' when talking about... well, a martial art 'system' I suppose. As against using the term 'style' which, to me, relates to an individual's interpretation and method/movement, etc., when performing stuff from his/her system. My second point relates to your point about 'eclectic curricula'. The word 'eclectic' suggests something that is somewhat disjointed and, perhaps, disorganised. And that may indeed be your point. But are you saying that it is not possible for someone to train BJJ one night of the week, kickboxing on another night, Indonesian Silat on a third night, Boxing on a fourth night, and Filipino weaponry on a fifth night, etc? Because, if you are, that's like saying that you can't play Tennis one night, and Squash and Badminton on two other nights - or even on the same night! Just because someone chooses to cross-train within different arts, it need not in any way devalue their training. In fact, it is my belief that to do so can only benefit an individual's understanding and ability in the martial (or 'fighting') arts generally. As long as one can attain the ability to move smoothly in and out of different ranges, with cohesion, they can also be moving in and out of different systems at the same time too. And please remember, what works best for a strong athletic 19-year-old male might be quite at odds with the requirements of a 60-year-old woman. My third point relates to your somewhat pompous and arrogant suggestion that Kuk Sool is a unique exception. I suppose you think that because In Hyuk Suh (allegedly) travelled around in order to train with different people, in disparate arts (albeit Korea arts), and then he supposedly collated the techniques, training methods, etc., into this complete and workable system. Someone on the outside, looking in, could just as easily see that syllabus as being 'eclectic'. In any case, are you really suggesting that In Hyuk Suh is/was the only person capable of constructing a martial art system from a wide source of material? If so, that 'puts down' a large number of martial art system founders, such as: Funakoshi (Karate), Kano (Judo), Oshchepkov & Kharlampiev (Cambo), etc. And that's not to mention other phenomenal martial arts people such as Dan Inosanto either!
No pomp, circumstance, or arrogance intended. It has just been my observation that many MA schools that choose this route (i.e. a conglomerate of various styles) usually fall short of the mark in making a cohesive system. I think part of the problem lies in the fact that the *innovator* usually has studied under different disciplines, and has trouble undoing the learning methods associated with each different style when passing this knowledge along to his students. And yes, there are some who manage to get past this pitfall, but it's a very small percentage in relation to those who don't (IMO, Tiger Schulmann, based in NY, is a contemporary example of such success). I disagree that "eclectic" carries the connotation of disjointedness, but as I said, many who serve a mixed plate instead of a single staple do come across as being slightly disjointed (even most novices can tell, which kinda supports my claim). Maybe this is where the term "eclectic" picked up a negative interpretation, at least as it applies to MA (and especially to MMA). :dunno: While this statement is quite true, you can't deny that if the instruction doesn't teach some sort of connection to help *bridge the gap* between different disciplines, as it were, then it's left up to the individual to do this. Understand that according to my perspective, if the fighting methods are to be truly effective, these transitioning elements need to be more cohesive, making the system seem unified rather than piecemeal (you said it yourself, and I've highlighted it in blue). So whether or not a student is intuitive enough to do this independently or the system does it for them, the smoother these transitions are, the better the fighter -in the case of the former- OR the better the system -in the case of the latter- (IMO anyway). :topic: I didn't know you were a MacUser, Pugil. Now I'll have to go re-evalute my opinions about your character. Also, you should really invest in a 2-button mouse with a scroll wheel. That way when you encounter those red underlined words, you can just right click (standard configuration, as some lefties transpose the buttons), to pull up a contextual menu and activate the platform imbedded Dictionary program. To Obewan & kidosool: I've seen many different monetary models used, including one where the tuition was mathematically adjusted so that geup test fees, sparring gear, etc. is totally eliminated as 'extra' costs. So depending on which model you adopt, making the assumption that these fees will help *keep you solvent* is erroneous. But kidosool does have a valid point, IMO, concerning the exorbitant BB test fees. The higher dahn test fees seem to go up astronomically in comparison to the geup test fees (which are often kept flat nowadays, rather than incrementally increasing - like when I was a color/colour belt). I've discussed this before but I'll say it again, increased fees for higher rank was based off of much older conditions in the business world of MA. Clinging to these archaic rituals is only accepted because it draws in more revenue and people continue to put up with it (albeit begrudgingly). Seeing as how business is conducted in the modern world, these practices are in dire need of a major overhaul. :yeleyes: :thinking:
I somewhat Agree KJN, the issue is of course that the school owner can only control the gup test fees, and the asscociation that they belong to generally control the pricing of BB levels. So what's an organization to do? Should there be an exsorberate initail fee for students, or should BB test fees be at a level to generate enough revenue to support the entity? The bottom line is that any asscociation, in existance, or created in the future needs to generate income. Thoughts?
I have many thoughts, Obewan (as any opinionated SOB would). Despite the fact that the topic of this thread centers around your dream association, let's face reality for just a moment. With things about to change drastically (whether you're "grandfathered in" or not), NOW would be the time to make some changes WRT your own little corner of the universe. If you are unhappy about enough "little details" that it looms as a "big problem" in your eyes, refuse to sign and see where that takes you. Otherwise, accept the changes and keep your mouth shut - nobody likes a malcontent.
is it posted anywhere...? My dream association would have less angst Since I still haven't seen the actual changes in writing (nothing online) & I don't want to ask a school owner, (IMHO shoving a short stick in an anthill to quiet my personal curiousity isn't cool ) so I can't comment on the franchise issue yet. So many wise & insightful souls on MAP...wish the new "rules" were posted somewhere so all can decide based on facts. I'm not a school owner, & school owners have a totally different relationship w/the Suhs I'm sure all I can speak about is personal experience (all good). Seeing the proposed changes in writing posted on a public forum would be great, til then we really don't know.
Same Hymn sheet Don't worry my friend, I'm fairly sure that - most of the time at least - you and I are 'singing off the same hymn sheet'. Since I chose to leave WKSA I have taken the opportunity to train with lots of other very knowledgeable and highly gifted martial artists from several other systems. And some of those people (such as Dan Inosanto, for example) are true pioneers in the martial arts. This has truly opened my eyes to the fact that there is just so much out there, in the big wide world, that Kuk Sool practitioners are shielded from - or blinded to! As I have said many times before, however: A goldfish in a bowl (or tank) is in danger of seeing his own reflection, rather than see what is beyond the glass and may, therefore, believe that nothing of substance and value exists beyond those fixed perimeters of their own tank. Whilst not losing sight of the origins, history and traditions of the arts they study, people like Inosanto have in many ways taken martial arts out of the 15th century (or whenever) into a modern and more relevant era. In other words, they are also not afraid to adapt and modify the teachings to our present times and needs where, as and if, necessary. Anyone who knows me would know that I would use a Mac. I like the best things in life (when I can afford them). Not for me the mundane and ordinary. Bit like my martial/fighting arts too!
