Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by middleway, Oct 23, 2006.
Nice clips btw Chris
Well said butterfly ... well said.
But understanding is not a trait found in the ignorant......
I could be going blind... I eventually saw the strike before the guy gets in after watching the video a number of times. (Also, I have to admit I haven't watched the clip with the sound on yet),
Just the technique................
I would love to see a clip of either yourself or Alex performing Pi-Quan and or Beng-Quan, or infact any/all of the 5 fists, purely to see the underlying technique rather than an application.
Would this be possible?
butterfly - i dont think it reasonable to drag DD into it. I am friendly with a few of his instructors and they are all good guys - you can't judge someone by their student's internet persona.
uh huh - apparently...
(fetch me the popcorn...)
FWIW, I train dog brothers knife defence stuff because it was the best material I could find. Not sure why you'd take the approach of "you'll probably get stabbed anyway, so why bother training against it?". What if you do get a scenario where someone pulls a knife and you see it? What about a bottle or glass? Seems strange to just not bother with it due to fatalism...
As for police not noticing - do you know how much SD training police get per year? A friend of mine in the force got 3 days combat training last year. So if they dont pursue it in their own time, they basically have no training.
Aside from anything else, training with and against weapons is good fun. I dont expect to ever get in a situation like that, so I train weapons stuff because I like it. I could understand someone saying "I dont believe I'll ever get in a knife situation, so i dont train for it" - everyone has a point where they choose not to train further. But just giving up cos you'll definitely fail is a bit strange...
I always thaught it was you in Leamington Spa....may be its because your the only Systema guy I know on the intraweb.
Anyway, there were three Systema guys came down. One I thaught was RobP who had a police and TKD background, one was a big bald guy and the other I forget.
We went to a Throwdown in Northampton a while back. Paul Genge was there - he's the police guy. My background prior to Systema was CIMA. Had a couple of students with us.
I rolled and did push hands with Jekyll (?). Paul was doing a bit of knife stuff with a guy over from Germany, that was it as far as I remember.
That’s not really my position.
My position is:
1/ Knife selfdefense, in the worst case, gives you the idea that you can fight a guy with a knife, and maybe you should do so rather than give over a wallet.
I think reply’s on this thread show this to be true.
2/ Knife self-defence on the level of "he stabs you like this, so you do this and grab here" just is not going to cut it (pun ). Knife self-defence, like all self-defence should be much more on a level of "does that guy have a knife? Am I to close to him? If he has a knife can I punch him before he sees me as a threat, do I have time to run away".
If your looking for ways to fight the guy in front of you, who has shown you the knife, you are really wasting your time.
3/ If someone has a knife and wants to stab you....they will stab you. The best self-defence will let you run away, the next best will tell you he has a knife before he stabs you. But he will stab you.
Police walk into situations every day that give them more information and ability than weeks of training.
Also the sad fact is that out of the 83 police officers, a large proportion will have been threatened with a knife over the prior 12 months.
Its amazing that you feel that a guy learning to disarm a blade in a dojo will do better at spotting a knife than someone who is in that situation every day.
Training because its fun is the only reason for training anything.
If I am ever threatened by a very slow man/child who makes me aware of having a knife before he uses it.....I will be really in trouble.
I did start putting together links to stabbing clips on youtube last night but it got really depressing quite fast so I stopped. Anyone who has any fantasy about the reality of knife crime and how it manifests itself should do a search in the self-defence forum here, and look at the clip of the kid who gets stabbed in the heart. He didn't see it coming.
Yeah, that was it....remember it as being Leamington Spa....I was the guy with Jekyll.
Liokault - police officers do not train in SD properly (that's why so many coppers train in their own time). Someone who trains in knife fighting and defence will have a better chance against a knife than someone who doesnt. Someone wearing armour, carrying pepper spray and a telescopic baton and having lots of experience in adrenaline management has a better chance than someone who is trained in knife defence but has none of those things. Someone with all of those things _and_ knife defence training/awareness would have a very good chance indeed. I suggest you look at the DBMA "Die Less Often" promo - I train what i train now on the basis of that video. It isn't failsafe, nothing is - but it's the best I could find. I went at someone who has trained with crafty and lonely, I had a dummy knife and I think I maybe caught him on the outside of his arm once out of about 20 attempts - every single time i was stopped, disarmed and controlled. That was good enough for me. I suggest you take a look at their stuff and see if you can find someone to show you some bits and pieces. It might give you some faith that it is possible to defend against a knife that you dont know is coming (basically it comes down to universal responses to aggressors). Not saying for a minute that it is failsafe, but it does work.
I 100% agree that if I can extricate myself from a knife situation without a fight, then I will do that rather than risk injury. I dont believe what I train makes me a good bet against a knife, just a better bet than if I had no training. that's just common sense.
As for the police - I think you're giving them too much credit. Their training is not good enough when it comes to SD situations. I'm not suggesting that Dave the ninja doing knife disarms for half an hour a week in a dusty church hall is going to do any better - I'm saying that the police training isn't good enough and does not give them anything like enough time training against these situations. If the police were properly trained to deal with knife threats then those figures quoted would be interesting, but as it is I dont see it as a surprise.
Filipino arts seem to have a good (and recent) track record with and against knives - I dont know why people would train anywhere else when looking for knife defence. imho etc
I'm not saying that the SD training in the Police is good or not.
I'm saying that they get put in a position every day, that gives them a much higher level of awareness of danger than most of us.
That is training that you cant buy.
Lets put this another way.
I see knife self-defense as similar to bare hand defense against samurai sword. Now, there are Aikido people and various karate people who do this, maybe some even think that they can 'really' do it, but in reality they are going to get chopped up every time.
Dose this mean they should stop training and just accept the fact that they are going to be chopped? Should they carry on with there unrealistic training?
Wudang trains extensively in sword, sabre and spear/staff. Have you stopped training them? If not, why do you keep training them? I was in the park this morning right by a bunch of wudang people training sword applications. Given that they arent likely to be walking about with a sword, why are they doing it?
Training for RBSD against a knife attack is not the same as training traditionally against weapons. The goals are entirely different - RBSD is purely based on dealing with the scenario, traditional training is covering a lot of attributes and skills that apply to other situations.
Realistic training would suggest that you arent likely to ever be attacked with a sword, but if you were, I'd suggest that what they are doing has a better chance of working than nothing at all.
Your opinion of what will occur in a knife confrontation is different to mine - I believe it's possible to train to deal with an untrained but armed attacker, you dont. There doesnt seem much point in discussion beyond that - on the basis of my opinion, i train so that I can deal with that threat. On the basis of your opinion, you don't.
I seem to remember home office figures covering people being stabbed with their own knife. Perhaps it's possible that some people have been disarmed by untrained defenders? Some attackers may be so inept that basic training in disarming might work.
According to the DBMA material, the fatal knife strikes are the last ones - this would suggest that even if cut in the first place, those wounds are rarely fatal. So if one works on that basis, it would seem worth training to disarm. I do take the point that if you dont see the knife then you cant disarm it, but that's why i like the DBMA stuff - it gives a consistent method for this sort of "I cant see his hand/s" scenario so that, armed or not, you deal with it. That was sufficient for me.
liokault...u still havent replied to my post from yesteray... back in pg 6
Start with a premise other than, all armed forces do Shotokan for there H2H needs and maybe I will stop giving you monosyllabic answers.
I never claimed that all armed forces used shotokan ... u just read wrong. I said most armed forces use a version of shotokan that focuses completely on combat. You still havent prooven to me how tai chi is any better.... but u keep saying it is.
Perhaps that's not quite correct..
has he been saying that?
Are we reading the same thread?
I'm really tempted to dude you.. seriously..
But I'm lovin' it too much
Separate names with a comma.