you tube'd some vids

Thats what that guy told me.

 

So, he told you that no army uses Shotokan.....what was your point again?

 

Shotokan't ?

Cut him some slack he's from Canada

 

no hes said they do use it

 

The amount of H to H training that they recieve i'm sure they wouldn't even scrape the surface of shotokan. It might come from shotokan but to be it i would think they would have to devote a lot more time, effort and consitancy.

that being said...karate is still only good for fighting women and children.

sam

 

Hi,

I completely agree. Perhaps I didn't elucidate enough. In places such as the Philipines and Malaysia which are inherently knife cultures, training in the indigenous arts may just save your life, however, even acknowledged masters of these arts who have had several real life encounters have usually been cut, sometimes severely, perhaps several times in one fight and most have the ' badges ' to prove it. For realistic knife defence..............get a gun !

Jaae.

 

Sigh... why do i even try to defend an art that i dont even practise....
I GIVE UP
Still you guys should learn that every art has its anvantages and disadvantages....

 

It is hard to defend any art without knowing the context. Here are three examples of how context changes everything. These are real life stories.

1. A police officer was attacked by a criminal with a knife. The attacker came down with an "ice pick" type technique. The officer had trained in karate for years and instinctively used the karate rising block which he had drilled thousands of times. He did not plan it, the block just instinctively happened and it stopped the knife attack. The officer proceeded to punch out the attacker and arrest him. CONTEXT: many would say that his technique would not work against a trained knife fighter which is probably true... REALITY: he would have been killed if his block had not worked, it did work for him and that is HOW he knows the rising block can work.

2. A famous karateka was attacked by a knife wielding opponent. He was cut many times on the back of his forearms but eventually defeats the opponent. CONTEXT: he was a karate master and survived the attack... REALITY: the master realized he had been cut many times, he was not happy with this and sought out a better way. He ended up training in Aikido and found it to be better.

3. A Judo champion is working the docks in California and is attacked by another dock worker who is wielding a knife. The attacker is trained in Filopino knife fighting. The Judo champion is cut many times but eventually gets a hold of the attacker and breaks his arm, then chokes him out. CONTEXT: this is a Judo champion against a Filopino knife fighter. REALITY: The Judo champion commented that the attacker had fought in a strange way and that is why the fight took so long. If the attacker had attacked with a downward (ice pick) attack, then the Judo champion would have ended the fight much quicker.


What comes from just these three stories? 1. Karate rising block works!!! 2. Karate isn't enough, you need to train a weapon "art" to deal with weapons. 3. There is always someone that will attack you in a different or unexpected way... you have to be good enough to defeat them no matter how they attack.

 

Context 1/

Police officer is killed by knife wielding perp because he trained for hours until he was ready for an attack that was never going to be used.

Perp just stabs him in the gut. Police officer realises he was stabbed just before he bleeds to death.

Perp takes police officers gun and robs a liqueur store. He spends the money of loose women and drink.


Context 2/.

A famous karateka was attacked by a knife wielding opponent.

Lucky for this guy that he has spent time on the door to compliment his time in tag fighting, making him a rounded fighter. As such he realises that to engage this guy would be stupid and as soon as he can he runs away. He passes out due to blood lose from the fore arm cuts but he is given blood in hospital and lives to run away another day.



Context 3/

3. A Judo champion is working the docks in California and is attacked by another dock worker who is wielding a knife. The attacker is trained in Filipino knife fighting.

He falls to the floor and bleeds to death before he realises that the guy was even angry at him.





Dont try and fight a knife.

The way knifes work is this:

If you can see the knife, he's just threatening you, so either run or give him the wallet.

If he really wanted to stab you, he would not have let you see the blade.

The whole thing about knife fights is a largely a myth. Even in the Philippines, almost every proper knife fight story that I have heard has involved 2 guy stabbing each other until the loser passes out due and dies to blood lose.

 

Most people in the know (e.g. have walked the talk on a daily basis) have a good grasp of what works and what doesn't. The stories I told were true stories of what really happened, I tried not to interject any of my personal opinions of the story but stay true to what was told to me directly from first hand witness and dialogue from the source.

My point was that you got to take everything in context. Many people take statements based on real world experiences but they are so far from the original events that they take them out of context which causes many to come to false conclusions.

When you stated that

...this is an interesting statement to me. The statement would be mostly true. Unlike in the movies, in knife on knife duels/fights the majority of the time one ended up dead and the other severely wounded (to most likely die later from the wounds).

I'm not complaining about your statement as it is a good and true point but I question the use of the word "proper". I feel this use is an example of how the use of a single word can change the context of a statement and this could lead to false conclusions.

What do you mean by "proper"? Do you mean other real life stories where someone survives is not a proper story in some way?

 

By 'proper' I mean both participants have blades and are aware that a fight is about to happen....as opposed to only one guy with a knife or two guys with a knife, one of whom just stabs the other.


As for the 'examples' above.......Hate to say I dont believe them but....I know two guys from my TCC class who have been 'attacked' with blades and have taken the attacker (s, in one case) out, but reading between the lines, in both cases it was clear that the attackers were really just threatening any my acquaintances misinterpreted the situation and got lucky.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

As for the intentions of the attacker in the cases of the stories. I don't know, I'm not a mind reader... but in all the three cases it was believed the attacker was capable of and in the act of using lethal force, and the defender believed their life was in jeopardy.

 

Ya this guy i know from the Philippines was tellin me about his idiotic brother who entered knive duels. Basically guys tie each other up with a rope thats only a couple feet long - so that neither fighter can run - and stab till one dies or passes out.. or both of them dies or passes out....
Well this guys brother is just scarred up and has bits of his ear missing.
Anyways on knife vs. knife... someone usually gets seriously hurt or dies...
i remember there was an old chinese proverb for that ... but it was someting about "the shorter the dao..."

If someone wants to stab you ... the knife will be in you when he bumps into you...you never see the knife....unless it happens to be one crazy duel.

i still dont understand why you show no respect for karate... like its useless and nothing compared to tai chi or any of the arts in the demos....

 

"its useless and nothing compared to tai chi or any of the arts in the demos..."

It's not that at all. Skill is not in the style, like x is good for knife fighting and b is good for htoh so lets take a bit from here and a bit from there and you end up with something from silence of the lambs. It's about how deep you go, and if your teacher allows, promotes and teaches how to go deep into an art. Talking about shotokan as if it's got something "useful" seems to me to get things the wrong way round.

sam

 

Dude :bang: Seriously :bang:

 

What if you can't run?
What if someone just wants to stab you up?
What if... what if... it's all "what if's" in any fight, aint it? (with or without knives) imho
This idea of not training knife defences because it "won't work" (because: my teacher says so/I saw it in a clip - delete as applicable) falls down at that point doesn't it?
Sure you'll get cut.
Sure you may die.
We all die sometime.
But personally, while I have breath in my body, I'm going to do my damndest to survive and hurt the other SOB as much as possible before I go.
What you do is your choice...
:bang: seriously :bang:

 

By all means train in somthing that 'almost certainly' won't work. It's your time. I will not advise you, or anyone, not to buy a lottery ticket either.

As long as you 'know' that dispite the fact that you could win the lottery, you in fact wont.

 

I have had a few wins on the lottery, never a jackpot but neverless the less some small wins.

Given your attitude I'm suprised you bother to train at all given that you could be attacked by a gang of knife wealding gun blazing tooled up hoodlums. In fact considering that someone could just shoot you why bother training in martial arts at all ?

 

Ok, so you have had a few wins....but do you buy a lottery ticket then buy a ferrari, or do you wait for the draw?

Bacause I enjoy it

Are you suggesting that I (or anyone) should be in MA because it will make them safe against a gang of knife wealding gun blazing tooled up hoodlums or that I could effect some one who wanted to just shoot me?

I suggest that you need a reality check. This is my real problem with 'knife self defence'. You may, if you train real hard, change the likelyhood of death by say 3% (figure plucked out of the air), but you give 50% of fools the idea that they may be ok if they try to fight the guy, because it worked in the dojo.......just give him the flipping wallet!

 

My only major beef with the above is you are stating an unknown - but to an extent controllable - variable as a "fact".
It's a possibility. Whether you like it or not - it's a possibility.
You are also in other posts continually making an assumption that someone who is pulling a knife on you "wants your wallet". You need to wake up and get into the 21st century imo. Times have changed. You and I grew up in the 70's and early 80's when that was almost certainly the case. People nowadays stab for vengeance, to be macho, just for fun, probably loads of other reasons...
Knives are dangerous and scary to us (Personally I'd rather try and disarm a gun at close range than a knife - for all sorts of reasons) but they do not always spell instant death. You can die from a well-aimed punch or kick - if you're unlucky - yet you train in empty hand sparring, don't you?
The assumption that you will always be maimed or die against a knife, so there's no point training it does you no credit as a martial artist imo
My Taiji teacher survived a murder attempt with a knife - she got stabbed, but she didn't die. She taught me to expect to be cut, to expect serious injury against a knife. But to not try at all? Your choice, but definitely not mine. If I thought like that, I wouldn't train at all.
:Angel: