These escorting techniques perplex me. Natural reactions to being grabbed are either to hit and/or to get out of a hold. how are these supposed to work without hurting the escort-ee? thanks
I did not learn this set in KS, but assuming that these techniques are similar to the ones I learned in Hapkido, I understand that "escort" techniques need to be used against someone that is semi-compliant already. One of the cops I taught put it this way, when you grab someone in a joint-lock, there is an intimidation factor that often makes them freeze up a bit, or think "oh. sh**, I'd better do what he says." I don not think that seizing a fully resisting partner with a standing joint-lock without using a softening strike is a high probability technique.
great point. cinching the tech or following the pain of the tech helps as well. funny, the techs were explained to me the same way(unaware person while freeze).
towards the end he talks about pain compliance with one of our escorting techs [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDqcKG6WxJY&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Escort Wrist Lock: Kamakubi, Chicken Wing or Goose Neck - YouTube[/ame]
I have been in one of these wrist locks... And let me tell you something... I wasn't thinking of escaping, I wasn't thinking of punching, ONLY thing I could think about was... Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! Please, make the pain stop! That is the point of wrist and actually all other locks... They make you do anything escort-ee says... Just because you want the pain to stop...
thinking about it more, it seems like the speed we learn in jeon weon beop, angle options in gak do beop, and precision in ki bon bon and kwan jeol ki should have gotten me more prepared for this conclusion. oh well, sounds like i just need to put in a few more hours with this material before i can comment further! thanks to all for helping!!!
im having tremendous difficulty with the double hooks behind the back technique. with the prior technique in this set, there is no need to get under the second arm. im thinking about pushing my hip into my opponent to bring the other side of the body around, but i dont want them to slip out(which 75% of the time happens to me). HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Relying on pain compliance, especially when locking minor joints, like fingers and wrists, is not to be relied on in situations where the other person is either: a) Drunk, b) Drugged up, on PCP (Phencyclidine) etc., or, c) very angry, or insane - temporary or otherwise - or a combination of those things! The fact that Kid Moe wasn't thinking about punching when he had such a joint lock applied to him, does NOT mean that some others won't do so. That's why Cops prefer to use Cuffs, a Partner (or three) to assist and back him/her up, and then lock the arm(s) up behind the aggressor's back. Watch any Cops programme on TV and ask yourself, "Would a dinky little wrist lock have allowed you to control that drunken yob?" Or whoever.
this is a shoulder lock though, sir. when walking by the drunkard(unassumingly), i use my distal hand to grab his wrist and push it backwards whist pronating it. at the same time i take my proximal arm and cut up at his elbow crease and dig my semi straight arm down on his shoulder joint. after this point i am behind the person and either dig my index and middle fingers into the kyeon jeong pressure point(middle of the traps) or i can attempt to snatch his other arm. with the help of a mysterious kjn, i now working on cinching my elbows in, but when i let go of the wrist to snatch the other arm i feel like the opponent has had too much time to react and pull their arms free. i am thinking aboutsimply hooking both at the same time in a full nelson neck crank to make up for the speed loss, but i really want this technique to work.
I've always found this set really useful in grappling. And to the original poster, who ever said that these weren't supposed to hurt or injure the escorted? As to how are they done without being countered, do it quickly !!! IDK about you, but if I have to restrain/subdue someone I'm going to do it quickly. Also I think people don't realize that there are "finishes" to these techniques, bc they are always demoed as stand-up.
that would be me. just the way i was taught; no injuries in this set. the finish is pinning on a wall, the floor, etc, with no further complications. but the emphasis i was given for this set was to control a person with a single hold while they flop around or resist
Pugil makes a good point... But I have used front and rear wrist locks plenty of times when I was a cop...and on suspects that were bigger than me and on suspects who were fighting several other cops off...everytime- they worked...I just cinched down like a pitbull.
Important to keep your opponent moving: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpaCXBdtPGo"]Vertical Bent Arm & Wrist Lock - YouTube[/ame]
No argument here, but you crack me up, Pugil. The reason has to do with what the essence of "escort techniques" entails (that being to coerce someone to go where YOU want them to go). Most joint-locks & other techniques which comprise the kuk-sool curriculum, are based on self-defense principles and therefore make quick to down your opponent ASAP. Escort techniques are a special breed of techniques which are more than likely expected to be performed on a person who is quasi-compliant (i.e. they are fearful of heavy retribution should they resist too much, thus making "pain-compliance" a viable option in executing this type of technique). This is why attempting such techniques on berserker minded individuals is a *lost cause*. IMO there's a good reason why this set typically isn't taught until 3rd dan. By waiting until students have more than likely experienced executing the vast corpus of joint-locks on a wide variety of body types, plus having more experience with what has popularly become known as "lock flow" drills, better guarantees that they will be successful with this particular set of techniques. I don't need to tell you, Pugil that transitioning to a different lock in order to stay in control of the person, is part & parcel of the underlying principles involved with this set. But just in case others reading this thread aren't aware of this fact, then they are now.
