Xing Yi - Spinal Wave

Was watching a video yesterday about Xing Yi, it was mainly about training the spine. From what I gathered, the power generation in Xing Yi, in a spinal context comes from the spine moving in a vertical wave manner. i.e. starting from the base, in sequence all the vertebrate move backwards, and then move forwards again form the base and in sequence, much like cracking a whip.

Was wondering is this the only method used to generate power from the spine in Xing Yi, or are there methods that are similar to Tai Chi as well, i.e. twisting/twining of the spine, like loading a spring.

Also I would guess, that the spinal power generation is what is responsible for the tactics of the art. Xing Yi Spinal Wave moves in a backwards and forwards manner, it is ideally suited for Xing Yi tactics of centerline attack, in contrast the Tai Chi twisting/twining is best suited for its tactic of Yin/Yang, absorbing and projecting.

Does anyone know, once again in a spinal context, what sort of motions Ba Gua , Yi Quan and Ziranmen use. I would guess these would be either combinations of the two aforementioned methods or either one them.

 

This is the main method of power generation that I've been shown so far. There's also the contraction and expansion of the torso (specificly the dantien region) involved though... it's hard to explain, but in, like paoquan, there's you compress pretty fully and expland pretty fully at the same time you "crack the whip". I can't explain it very well, but it's there.

There are spinal twisting methods in xingyi I study as well, but those might come from bagua... our line, as I understand it, has a bit of bagua sprinkled through out.

 

Can your spine actually do a Mexican wave? I wouldn't have thought so.

Will need to look into it.

 

What is a mexican wave?

FWIW, I don't know if the spine is actually moving in a wave, or if it's just a way to conceptualize the "snapping".

 

Yeah, I was trying it out last night, I noticed that when you first start the wave i.e. from the base, pushing your vertebrate away from your centre, your tailbone tucks in towards your perineum, and your lower abdomen compresses (if we call this stage loading), and when you do the actual striking part of the whip (if we call this unloading) the abdomen expands out. I guess if you have this developed to a habit, you can also add a reverse breath, and whatever other power adding features, stepping, continuing the wave motion with your arm, etc, it could be quite devastating.

I think you can actually physically move each vertebrate to create a wave, I used to do a lot of microcosmic circulation that basically uses the same intent paths, but without the physical movement, personally I'm pretty sure I feel the vertebrates moving in a wave when I do this.

 

It can. Seriously, my teacher hits like a damned frieght train. This isn't teacher worship talking either, the man hits hard, even in little bitty motions. I never want to be hit full on by him. I hope to develop that sort of striking power myself at some point.

One thing though, when I first started learning this method I lost a LOT of power. I still don't hit as hard using this method as I do hitting with the more common hip rotation methods. I'm getting there, but not yet.

 

Spinal Wave

This is detailed by Master Bok Nam Park as Dragon back in Vol 1 of his Pa Kua Chang books. Yes it is great for your back and spine and over time will develop additional power to the normal turning of the waist.

 

So the “Spinal Wave” is also a Ba Gua method of power generation? I know Ba Gua/Xing Yi have a history of training together, so I guess it may be due to this, though I’m just guessing.

Do you mean to say that this “Spinal Wave” training is part of the overall “Dragon Back” picture. What I understand by “Dragon Back”, or as I know it “Dragon Body” is being able to undulate you body like a snake/dragon, and basically move as if you have no bones in your spine (spineless), i.e. make your body twist, turn, and fold in various bizarre ways, while maintaining connectedness and power.

Any one got any footage of Dragon Back/Body ?

 

Different systems might refer to different things when saying dragon body. In xingyi, AFAIK, it refers to a segmentation of the body into a few sections, it can mean a bit of twisting and folding, but not anything really bizarre, just a bit of twisting to maybe let a strike go by... Dragon body is, I believe, considered to be a trait of an advanced practitioner.

 

Dragon body in xingyi refers to three distinctly different angles you body would hold( all the key principles are in santi)at least earlyer on in training. your torso,upper front leg, and lower front leg. I agree with pretty much everything that was posted here, you want to explosivly rotate the hips as well as use some sort of "spinal wave",however, when I do this I keep closely connected. So when I do this "wave" I fold at the solar plexus and its like I'm leading with the center but since my back is connected and in front of my hip/waist it all moves at the same time. very subtle.you sort of don't see the spine "wave" because since each vertibra above the next is so connected the wave seems to dissapear, the movement is instantanious. When one part moves first the parts that move second and third ect.. still move together so they also move first. Ex: you rotate your hips and lift/wave you spine, you then move your hand forward and in relation to your hips your rear leg kicks backward, so even though there is some order to which comes 1st 2nd...it all happens at the same time, they start together and end together the same applys to the vertibra. even though you move the bottom one then the next and so forth, they would appear to move at the same time making it seem like there is no wave. By the way I believe there are also twistings of the spine for power generation. but these are only a few methods, combine a hundred more and you might hit like the "freight train teacher" mentioned earlier.

 

Great posts. If you would, read my post in the fajin thread, under the context that what I describe there is the same as the spinal wave. I tried to simplify the description into a 1,2,3... but really its almost instantaneous (as has been pointed out) because the movement is essentially when the spine goes from (tailbone untucked, lumbar curved in, shoulders back) to (tailbone tucked, lumber flattened, shoulders forward), and done at full speed it loses the apperance of a wave-like quality.

Reverse breathing should be used because it helps to keep the air from being forced out of the lungs. I reiterate that 'Pi' quan is the strike to learn it with. PBN's dragon back exercise also uses a vertical chopping strike to develop it.

The forced jolting (or not) of the tailbone ultimately determines the end result of the strike and even without it there's still a considerable amount of power being generated which in bagua we call 'han li' (concaving; containing force). If you are already smoothly doing the spinal wave in your strikes there needn't be much more work to emit force.

(on a side note--Every strike is really a combination of 2 or more forces, in bagua you see a lot of 'shun li' (moving with; unified force) where the shoulders, arms, and hips all move together to the outside but it still has the han li force inside it which not only pulls down but can also provide a rising force.)

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Which video were you watching?

 

great post kronos....

what type of bagua do you currently train in?

i agree that all stikes....except maybe purely external....use more than one vector of force.

and its interesting to think about the combinations of one type of force internally and the other externally. i think this leads to some of the differences in the tendencies of taiji, xingyi, and bagua. that their external display of force differs distinctly.

i believe that all the nei jia should be able to generate power in every possible way....and that maybe some schools have over time overemphasized one or another, or even forgotten some.

seems most xingyi schools rely on the vertical wave model, while too many bagua schools have forgotten it.

one thing is for sure. it is wise to train what works for whichever type of scenario you are most concerned with. vertical power is awesome for single opponent offense, while horizontal power is great for multiple opponent defense.

most xingyi that i know train according to the theory that the best defense is an unbeatable offense!

and many bagua teachers specialize in the horizontal evasive forces to such an extent that their superb defense becomes a great offense!

these are extremes i think.

personally, i feel that it is important to be able to express any kind of force, whatever is appropriate in any given moment/situation, and that all styles of nei jia should at least be familiar if not competent in the others methods to ensure a complete study of their own art....the Internal Arts!

i have chosen to specialize in bagua, but also integrate forces that are typically better trained in taiji and xingyi, because i want my internal skills to be complete.

so i can use vertical, horizontal, or both as spirals to either defend or attack.

all the arts aim for this. only that from the outside, observing someone practicing or using their particular style, it seems predominately one way or another.

i think this is why sun lu tang studied all 3 and then developed a new style of nei jia that incorporated the best of the 3 in a new 4th way.

food for thought.....

 

I was watching Alex Kozma's "Developing and Using Power From the Three Dantiens, Vol 1". Some great info on there, highly recommend it.

 

OK and you can learn all this in one day, huh? That's what somebody told me... "you can learn to punch in one afternoon". This sounds like more than one day's practice to me!



-D

 

Who told you that?

 

You can learn to throw several different types of punches in a day. You could become relatively proficient with a boxer's jab or cross or the classic full chambered reverse punch.

You can even learn how to "throw" the punch we're talking about, but it's going to take a while for you to get the power generation.

 

Look it up

 

yeah, that might help..

 

off topic, but you're signature quote got me thinkin....
ever hit the water at high speed? or from jumping into it from high up? its pretty hard at the moment of impact!

its also pretty hard when its frozen, crushes ships into cans and grinds mountains into dust....