That's WTF TKD. ITF TKD allows punches to the head: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43xm436icfM"]YouTube- Taekwon-do ITF - Eddie Pavlenko[/ame]
TKD does indeed include knees and elbows in its syllabus, and Master Betty is incorrect in saying that there is only one pattern with a knee in it. Where he is absolutely correct however is that most TKD clubs do not train to use knees and elbows in sparring. This is partly because most TKD clubs only practice one form of sparring out of the many that were originally part of TKD, among other reasons. And a technique that is not trained in sparring or under some stress is not worth much. I happen to believe that you can use stressed drills other than sparring to learn effective technique, but in either case it's a long way from doing it in a pattern where the body mechanics are frequently incorrect for the sake of making it look good. Mitch
No one's arguing that plenty of TKD schools don't suck. Blame the school . . . not the art. I guess this is what I'm so baffled about. . . Why would anyone disagree with me when the techniques are clearly there? People can do what they want with them. Surely you, of all people, would understand what I mean regarding training the style properly. You, as an individual instructor, can pull upon the entire encyclopedia of techniques to craft a training regimen that you feel will be effective.
And it was WTF we were talking about?! If WTF claims to be full conact how can it be if theres no punching to the face?
Yeah, the thread started out a WTF thread but kind of degenerated into TKD as a whole. As for the WTF, it's full contact for the techniques they allow. I mean, Western kickboxing is full contact, even though knees and elbows are not allowed, you know what I mean?
"Full contact" is defined by how hard you're allowed to strike, not the target area. If you can hit as hard as you want, particularly if you're encouraged to do so, it's full contact. If there's a penalty for excessive force, it's light contact. How's that for a simple definition? A similar argument to yours that should show the flaw in your reasoning: How can boxing claim to be full contact? There's no elbows, no knees, no kicks, no hitting below the belt. But do you really believe that boxing isn't "full contact" just because it limits the competitors to one technique (punches) and a limited target area (above the belt)? I don't.
All good points, thank you Peter. It took me some time to adapt to using shin kicks just because of the range difference; I was surprised how much it threw me. Mitch
Thanks Mitch Yes, it's a difficult adjustment because everything is suddenly closer when in shin roundhouse range and that requires faster and better reactions. Respectfully Peter
MT is a what I call a shell art. The entire system is virtually contained in a tiny handful of techniques: Oh dear. Methinks someone needs to look a bit deeper. I'm surprised Slip hasn't jumped on this one. Thai is a hierarchical art (like BJJ in some ways). Simple basics (as you say), combined in multiple ways and backed up by a whole underpinning of much deeper and more technical aspects. Thai clinch fighting is an art within an art for example. An art not much understood outside of Thailand. Multiple arm positions, pushes, pulls, unbalancing, throws, defensive and offensive body positioning, follow up strikes etc. And considering such things barely exist in most Thai clubs it most certainly doesn't exist in TKD. What you've done is superficially looked at some Thai footage (he punched him with his right hand, he kicked him with his shin etc) and applied the false TKD paradigm of "more named techniques = better art". That's just not the case. Some TKD schools teach hip throws right? Is all of Judo now in TKD too?
Exactly. Anyone who thinks it's as simple as "a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick" is sadly mistaken. It's not that the expression is false - but that most people who use that expression don't actually undertand what it means. A TKD guy who starts hitting with his shin instead of his foot is 99% of the time, not doing a thai roundhouse. The biggest difference isn't what youhit them with - it's the actual mechanics of the kick. Considering how much trouble and time I see it takes westerners to learn this kind of kick in the gym when they're actually training in muay thai under a thai coach, it makes me very leery of people who say they're doing a thai kick that they taught themselves or learned in a couple of weeks of half-hearted thai training at a crappy gym. As I stated before, I'm more than happy to educate him in muay thai - but it'll be done on the muay thai section of the forum. I'm not going to be responsible for pulling this thread off topic because he displays the stereotypical chip o nthe shoulder about muay thai.
You see, this is the kind of BS I've been having to deal with the entire thread. I never said that TKD was "better." In fact, I haven't attacked MT at all. All I've said--and it's true--is that all of the most commonly used techniques in MT are also in TKD, and that if you train TKD right, then it's a viable fighting system. That is the only point I have tried to make. But I have to keep repeating myself over and over and over because Master Betty chooses strawman arguments over actually addressing any of my points. My primary contention is actually that you can take the taekwondo martial art and train it in a manner that is not in accord with what you would see in a typical TKD dojang and that training will fashion you into a viable fighter. I'm talking about bagwork, padwork, plyometrics, distance and timing drills, and heavy contact sparring with all reasonable points of contact allowed. All anyone had to say was, "Yeah, that makes sense." But instead everyone just wants to argue because of what I feel is a fundamental misunderstanding of what TKD is. Master Betty keeps talking about my ignorance. Well what about his? His view of TKD seems stereotypical to me and he's not flexible enough in the mind to stretch his understanding. Neither is he the only one here who seems to fall into this category.
lol... yeah I read it and just shook my head. I've got bigger fish to fry at the moment. But perhaps a quick BBQ is in order. I mean seriously. If that's one take on Muay Thai - it's a good indicator that he's not even scratched the surface. So it's almost not worth responding too. It's almost too easy to show why that stance is about as watertight as a Swiss Cheese scuba suit. That alone didn't make me want to spend the time bothering to read most of SPM's posts in the thread as I dunno how anyone could pull out of that type of a nosedive. But let's see if I get a free 10 min... been a while since I had BBQ.
All I've said--and it's true--is that all of the most commonly used techniques in MT are also in TKD No they aren't. You think they are because you don't know enough about MT. Just because someone can fling their arm or leg out in a similat approximation doesn't mean they are throwing a MT punch or kick. If you want to see an art with the same techniques as TKD you should be looking at Shotokan Karate.
I didn't display any sort of attitude towards TKD in this thread at all. I used to do it before I left for Muay Thai. The problem, seems to be even mentioning Muay Thai to people like you is like showing a red rag to a bull.
Its a bit like saying that Tae bo has the same things in it as TKD . Or my car has an engine so its just like a Ferrari. I have done both and taken them seriously and its true on the surface they both contain kicks knees and elbows and punches. It cant be argued against. Theres some elbows and knees in patterns. Definitly. And I thing thats the point in saying it. Its a cop out to me. Sorry. I put my ego aside and accepted TKD for what it is and also took up MT and wrestling and MMA and I still do TKD. I even used to say and believe the bull.I think it was more trying to convince myself. Fundamentaly they are different and tacticaly they are different. Thats the key. The whole system of MT is the full tactical use of everything it uses in full contact fights. What works in the fight is where everything else comes from. The bag work and pad work and everything in training is governed by the fighting. And its ever evolving. To just borrow the pad work or bag work from watching might get a person somewhere but without the fighting its not going to be understood at all and lots will be missed. Theres some realy subtle stuff going on between fighters and in the way you use your body in MT and the tactics etc. You woud have to take Teakwondo and make the same rules as MT then have them fight for a lot of decades to learn and go through the process for it to be like MT. But then MT would of also moved forward. So theres no point. Either learn MT or just enjoy TKD for what it is. The point about the bag and pad work is very important because lots and lots do that and shadow work yet have no fights. Thats why they dont understant what to do or dont transfer the fight to them. The fighting experience of an instructor plus yourself gives you the knowledge of how to do bag work and pad work and shadow work.
I have to say I disagree to the extent that my guys increasingly have the option to spar full contact (albeit with Kudo style space helmets) and what they do is still TKD. They can use an increasing wide range of techniques and it's still just TKD. Eventually the ruleset will be less restrictive than MT and it'll still just be TKD. It'll just be the TKD that was originally taught rather than the sanitised version that has largely been passed down. Mitch
Im not getting into what TKD is or isnt because I respect it for what it is to me and to some its more and some less. My point is it wont be like MT or near it in terms of fundamentals and tactics etc. Yoy would have to do it for decades like that to reach the same ideas. Thats how fighting arts evolve,through the fights. A few weeks, years of TKD guys adding knees and elbows wont get them to the level of MT. MT has evolved into what it is. TKD would have to evolve over time to get there. The other quicker route is to just input MT in as its all already there. So its best to just learn it.
Or just resolve your TKD back into what it should be. That doesn't mean using MT for everything as the free sparring of TKD originally had a broader ruleset. It means recovering what was once there in an art that should encompass so much more than it often does these days. Plus there are some TKD guys who never lost what they had. That's what we should be aiming for. We shouldn't be trying to be MT, brilliant as that art is, we should be trying to be what TKD was always intended to be. Mitch
Which brings us nicely back to the orginal conversation regarding rulesets. I think that rulesets can be whatever they want to be - boxing is more restrictive than TKD but none can doubt it's effectiveness both in and out the ring. The difference I find is, yes in the training methods, but I think the catalyst, the thing that encourages those training methods is the scoring criteria for the fights. TKD doesn't need to become MT for it to be effective, but it needs to bite the bullet at some point and not get caught up in all this ITF v WTF v whatever ruleset the individual dojang down the road endorses. If they wanna spar full contact - that's great. But they need to learn th difference between techniques that have a purpose, ie hurting your opponent or upsetting his balance/rhythm etc and techniques that are largely only for show or scoring under a very specific criteria. This is the main reason why I think every aspect of Muay Thai translates well into both the ring and any sort of self defense context - the scoring criteria they train for endorses only what is effective. Changing the scoring criteria for TKD doesn't necessarly mean making changes to techniques, rulesets or the art itself - but the change would eventually take place because most TKD schools will not teach technique that translates well to anything other than it's specific ruleset. It's a large part of the reason why, though most big MMA fighters have tried both TKD and MT, they'll say that they still currently crosstrain in MT and not mention TKD. Most of the strategies and techniques that the large percentage of TKD schools teach are set to match their specific scoring criteria.
